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Old 07-29-2011, 09:48 PM   #16
Krasniewski OP
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Location: LA - Lower Alabama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamM View Post
Thanks Krasniewski! I hope you don't think that I was criticizing your bike in any way. There are many ways to get the same result. You've got a KLRE now and that's cool! What do you plan to use it for? Touring? Dualsporting and commuting?

SamM

It's all good!

I don't really have a car to use on a daily basis - so this bike will probably serve as a commuter / DS fun weekend bike. I have a K12S that I'll probably keep as a long distance bike, and a Ninja 250 that has been superb, but I'll probably part with as it's just not as beloved as either of others.

Found just a couple of pics from the build - I wish I had more from the early stages, but it looks like those are gone and lost forever.


***EDIT*** More pics found 8/10/2012!!! See page 6!







Frame - Initially I wanted to use the factory downtube, I bent it forward halfway, but it wasn't enough room. Limited resources and knowledge here, so I cut out a section of the factory 650R frame (above) to use.


Motor in Frame:



Factory Ninja Tank with fuel pump fitting cut out:




Old propane tank brazed to factory fuel pump fitting:





Motor has to be offset for sprocket alignment:



A few more can be found here:
http://s256.photobucket.com/albums/h...niewski/Motos/

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Old 07-29-2011, 10:59 PM   #17
Tenni126
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Good ride today. Glad I dropped mine instead of yours!!! Thought I'd add an outside, somewhat objective opinion here wrt the swap. The opinion is this: I need my motor to explode so I can justify the swap. Nice, flat torque curve, good compression braking, and the power is there regardless of gear for the most part. And that's with no intake tract or airbox to speak of. With a proper intake and a power commander this thing will be a beast. My DR is fairly quick I think, with a good jetting in a tuned carb, pre-96 motor, open airbox and the like, and it was all I could do to keep my headlight in the mirrors on those short freeway blasts. We hit 80+ in short order...that sixth gear is a huge plus, if not the biggest one. Plus, it's pretty sweet that the motor didn't fall out on the first set of washboards. So. As a guy with little dirt bike experience past an old, overweight DR650, I can say that this is a pretty enviable set-up. Whatever that's worth.
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Old 08-01-2011, 01:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krasniewski View Post
Found just a couple of pics from the build - I wish I had more from the early stages, but it looks like those are gone and lost forever.

Frame - Initially I wanted to use the factory downtube, I bent it forward halfway, but it wasn't enough room. Limited resources and knowledge here, so I cut out a section of the factory 650R frame (above) to use:
Thanks for sharing your build pix for those who have been contemplating their own 650 twin swaps, they detail some of the challenges fairly well. I see the intake tract as the hardest to solve properly in the long run. It would appear that a custom manifold that re-angles the throttle bodies would go a long ways to solving it but there are still obstacles in the path, it's not simple. I am beginning to think starting with some sort of perimeter type frame might make more sense but they pose their own problems also with fuel tank options etc.

I think what's really important is you "got 'er done" and can find out what other things might be improved or reworked in this process after using it for a while. So far from your initial riding impressions it sounds like it's worth the effort.
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Old 08-01-2011, 02:21 PM   #19
Krasniewski OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danketchpel View Post
I see the intake tract as the hardest to solve properly in the long run. It would appear that a custom manifold that re-angles the throttle bodies would go a long ways to solving it but there are still obstacles in the path, it's not simple.
Glad that helps!

The only real trick with the build is the intakes. A decent option that both RepsolRider and a friend had thought of was turning the spine into an airbox. It's airtight minus the aft end, where a nice sized filter could go. Of course, the spine would have to be heavily reinforced, as that are happens to be the weak point, but it'd be nice to have a decent airbox. It's probably easier than pulling and planing the intakes on the head to a different angle. You also get a few degrees if'n you flip the rubber intake boots upside down.

Quote:
I think what's really important is you "got 'er done" and can find out what other things might be improved or reworked in this process after using it for a while. So far from your initial riding impressions it sounds like it's worth the effort.
Thanks! I'm still REALLY happy wit the results - it's now a bike that's happy just about anywhere... There are probably better bikes, but not at this price point.
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Old 08-12-2011, 08:28 AM   #20
KLRnit
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Eek How did I miss this

Great job man. You did what i'm thinking of trying,combining the engine cradle to the KLR frame. I havent attempted it yet but thats my original thought process.
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Old 08-21-2011, 11:07 PM   #21
Krasniewski OP
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Some work on the bike this weekend.

Trying to turn the spine into an airbox - some work left - the only thing that makes me nervous at this point is whether the spine reinforcement with be enough or not - guess I'll find out soon enough. 3/16" angle iron, btw. I can add more steel to the top if need be, but if I find out I need more it's probably too late.



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Old 09-05-2011, 12:30 PM   #22
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Bluhduh

Finally finished up the intake, and thought I had to beat in the tank a bit more... so I did, and made a little hole.

Had to wash out the tank an brazed it up, which was fine. Bike was starting and idling OK, but some residual water got in the fuel, so I drained everything out, and the bike stuttered and died after a weak idle.

I redrained the fuel after letting it sit, and I"m pretty sure I got all the water out. No joy.

Pulled fuel rail and injectors, cleaned them out for good measure, but they are spraying just fine. Pulled and cleaned the plugs, which looked pretty good. Plugs were firing well. I pulled the air cleaner, but that makes no difference.

I've got the battery on a tender, and the bike is cranking well. I don't have a way to measure compression, but it sounds ok and air was coming out of the plug holes when cranked w/o them... not a helluvalot, but it's not a single, which is what I'm used to, so I figure that's ok. I figure if it were weak compression the bike would at least pop.

Wiring? It's getting spark, turns, fuel pump works, and the dash works ok, no dummy lights on... so I'm stumped. Major internal stuff (no funny noises though) or something completely simple and stupid are my guesses now.

Bummer, I was really hoping to put her back to work.
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Old 09-17-2011, 07:07 PM   #23
Krasniewski OP
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Tried another fuel pump, made sure the timing marks check with piston position and cam position. Resistance on the timing sensor seems to check out.

New coil sticks, new plugs.

Rechecked spark, injectors are spraying fuel. Spraying fuel down the intake with a spray bottle does almost nothing (got it to pop ONCE, could not duplicate). Once in a while it'll shoot flames up the intake - seems like spark isn't going at the right time. Plug wires are numbered, 1 and 2, so that's not wrong. Injectors are correctly hooked up as well, though I played around just for kicks - no joy.

Seems the spark is going at the wrong time - once in a while I can get flames to shoot up the intake. I tried a new ECU as a last ditch effort. Again, no change. I don't have anything to measure compression, but I can feel sucking and blowing through the intake and plug hole when the plug is out.


Ideas, anyone? I'm thinking about buying a fleabay wiring harness,but again, that's just desperately throwing money at the problem.

EDIT: If I open the throttle WFO - the injectors stop spraying. I wonder if this is supposed to happen, or if it's a TPS error of some sort. I dont' see anything about it in the service manual.



Krasniewski screwed with this post 09-17-2011 at 07:16 PM
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Old 09-17-2011, 09:04 PM   #24
hrdrckclmr
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hey as for the no fuel during WOT cranking my guess is that it is "flood clear" like on most jap cars IMHO
I'ma toy tech and use it mostly in the winter with idiot customers that think they need to pump the gas to start
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Old 09-17-2011, 10:34 PM   #25
tex_downey
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bikes looks so cool i hope you get if figured out. I have / had a KLR today i decided its time to part ways. but oh well.

on the bike not starting there is a sensor that tells the bike when to light the spark. just a idea, but it seems you have done most everything i would do. but one question is can you get it to run on starter fluid? iv had motors run on that i just have to keep sparying it in. will tell you if you have a fuel problem or other issuse. just a idea.
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Old 09-18-2011, 08:19 AM   #26
Krasniewski OP
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Thanks for the ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tex_downey View Post

on the bike not starting there is a sensor that tells the bike when to light the spark.iv had motors run on that i just have to keep sparying it in.
There's a timing sensor on the bike. The resistance checks out IAW the service manual, but I didn't check the running voltage yet. I took the right side cover off, and the sensor looks clear, and it reads off the a timing sprocket, which is marked TDC for cylinders 1 and 2 - I checked that the timing sprocket is indicating correctly IRT piston position.

I didn't try starter fluid, but I did try a spray bottle with gasoline. I got a nice big POP once, but was unable to to get it to catch again. As before, if anything, I got flames up the intake, so something's amiss, and I think it's timing... either fuel spray is off, or spark is off.

I found a wiring harness for under $25 shipped on fleabay, so I'm gonna give it a shot in case there's a short somewhere.

If that's not it, I'm really at a loss...
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:11 PM   #27
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No joy with a new wiring harness.

Tried a new timing sensor - even though I thought it wouldn't fix the problem.

I need to check the compression if I can find a gauge to fit the MC sized spark plug hole locally... guess I shoulda done this already by now.

I have a new engine lined up, but I'm not convinced that will solve the problem.

I put a new ECU on with the old wiring harness on - so maybe that refried the ECU (doubtful it was the ECU to begin with) or it could be something else completely.

This is getting old.

Krasniewski screwed with this post 10-05-2011 at 08:29 PM
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Old 10-06-2011, 05:09 PM   #28
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OK - bought a compression gauge - ~70PSI per cylinder at a regular starting crank.

Manual calls for 139-213PSI @ 400rpm.

I've never had a compression problem. The numbers are obviously well below spec, but not sure how picky people get when it comes to this stuff. I would guess the timing is off, but it looked good when I checked it.
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Old 10-06-2011, 06:36 PM   #29
ktmklx
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You have alot of stuff going on at once here. You have given us 2 important clues. 1) fire out intake 2) low compression

The most important step in trouble shooting an engine problem like this is confirming the mechanical parts of the engine are correct. I am going to assume you have not removed the camshafts since the engine was running last. If you did have the camshafts out the engine you must confirm they are timed correctly and you have proper valve clearance.

Next comes compression and leak down tests. You already did the compression test, it says you have a problem. First was the compression test done correctly? Does the manual specify open or closed throttle? Did you measure it the way the manual specified (open or closed throttle). Confirm this.

Next, is the compression gauge a known good working gauge (has it given good results on a known good engine). Compression gauges have a check valve in them some times they leak and give bad readings. if you are confident in your gauge and your test method you have a compression problem. You state there is fire coming out the intake, so I am going to assume your blue rags are not stuck in the intake tract giving you bad compression readings.

A leak down test needs to be done to determine where your cylinder leakage is. This test will show you if you are leaking
past your intake valves (possible, you have flame blowing into your intake port), exhaust valves or rings.

Incorrect cam timing can also cause low compression but on an DOHC shim under bucket engine if your cam timing is off by much you will likely have bent valves and that will show up in the compression test and the leak down test. In fact, if given only this information, low compression on both cylinders and fire out the intake, my first guess would be the cams are timed wrong and you have bent intake valves, but if you never had the cams out of the engine this is very unlikely.

Don't spend any more time or money on ECUs, wire harnesses and sensors until you can explain the low compression.
Don't use starting fluid on the engine, it accomplishes absolutely nothing. There is something wrong, identify, fix it and the engine will fire up instantly.


Is it possible, while you were working on it, something fell in the intake tracts and made its way into the cylinder and caused piston/valve damage? This does seem like a stretch since both cylinders are low on compression.

Some of this advice may seem very basic, but I am not sure of what you have and have not done. If any of it helps great, if not ignore. Good luck.
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Old 10-07-2011, 05:15 PM   #30
Krasniewski OP
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Great to hear advice - thank you. Very clear and concise.

I haven't done a leak down test, nor have I checked the valve clearance - I'll look into those.

As to the other specifics - I didn't move the cams at all. I did check them though, and all the marks line up exactly.

The compression gauge is brand new - cost around $40. Definitely not top of the line, and unproven. I initially did the checks with throttles closed, which yielded about 60 PSI - I rechecked with throttles open and got 70 after I noticed that detail in the manual.

Anyway, thanks again.

UPDATE: I don't (yet) have the specific leak down gauge, but interestingly enough, if the motor is turned by hand with the compression gauge hooked up, NO PRESSURE registers on the gauge for either cylinder. I don't know if it's b/c the pressure isn't building up at all, or the check valve is just too strong. Any thoughts???

Krasniewski screwed with this post 10-07-2011 at 06:24 PM
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