Hotrodding the GS - Page 104

johnjen · 10-06-2011, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erkmania

As I tried to explain, I didn't see a thorough enough explanation to my query. I did go through those links and still didn't see one that satisfied my curiosity.

More succinctly, is the temperature offset of the IICE Air linear across the temperature band? Adding a simple inline resistor does not accomplish this as I've learned. What I understood from the links provided is that the IICE Air can be set to different offsets, i.e.-unaltered, -10, -20 and -30C. I didn't see any discussion about the linearity of the offsets. Perhaps I read/scanned the info too briefly to glean an answer.

Perhaps I'm just dense. This wouldn't be the first time, after all, since my scalp is now burnt from circling the sun so many times.

The answer to your question could be both yes and no.
The IICE-Aire uses thermistors just like the stock air sensor and the output from a thermistor isn't linear to begin with, so that is the no answer.

But since the IICE-Aire uses thermistors that are 'offset' by -10, -20, and -30 degrees, then the answer is yes they are offset across the temperature band.

There are no resistors used in the IICE-Aire.

JJ

Poolside · 10-07-2011, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erkmania

I read about the IICE products and want a little more input into how they function.

Hey there Eric. I got caught up in some assembly work. I'm penciling together a simple and accurate answer that I think will cover what you're asking about.

erkmania · 10-07-2011, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnjen

The answer to your question could be both yes and no.
The IICE-Aire uses thermistors just like the stock air sensor and the output from a thermistor isn't linear... There are no resistors used in the IICE-Aire.
JJ

Thank you, sir. That's what I was after. So, if I understand correctly, you have attempted to leave the NTC resistance/temperature graphical trace the same shape, but alter it's relative position by a fixed offset.

1) Were you successful? 2) This now makes me want to go reread the mounting position link...

Next week I'll ask about the microprocessor IICE Cool.

Or, is there a preemptive answer in the ready?

Thanks for clearing up the Aire!!!!!!

Andrew · 10-07-2011, 07:55 AM

Aire???

Does Marketing have anything better to do than invent new words for things we already know how to spell?

Happy Wanderer · 10-07-2011, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poolside

Hey there Eric. I got caught up in some assembly work. I'm penciling together a simple and accurate answer that I think will cover what you're asking about.

Might be faster to call him "SweetCakes", ask what he wants to hear and call in the bouncers.
With whimsey of course...

Seriously though, looking forward to the reply. This is an interesting question.

johnjen · 10-07-2011, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Aire???

Does Marketing have anything better to do than invent new words for things we already know how to spell?

YES!

And the plural of Aire is Airz

JJ
ps creativity knows no bounds

Poolside · 10-07-2011, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erkmania

Sorry if this has been addressed elsewhere. I read about the IICE products and want a little more input into how they function. Primarily, is the IICE Air strictly an inline resistor circuit? Second, what does the microprocessor circuitry do for the coolant sensor circuit?

I looked in the Hotrodding thread and didn't find a sufficient explanation. I certainly don't want proprietary details; I couldn't care less. I just want more info to compare with what I read on the BoosterPlug site. I liked that he explained the nonlinear effect incurred by serial add on resistors to the air sensor circuit. This made me wonder about your product(s).

I would be happy with links to info I didn't see, yet.

My bike pings awfully (2011GS) during large angle tip-in (5500 rpm) and about 75% steady throttle at 5500 rpm.

Eric

Quote:

Originally Posted by erkmania

More succinctly, is the temperature offset of the IICE Air linear across the temperature band? Adding a simple inline resistor does not accomplish this as I've learned. What I understood from the links provided is that the IICE Air can be set to different offsets, i.e.-unaltered, -10, -20 and -30C. I didn't see any discussion about the linearity of the offsets. Perhaps I read/scanned the info too briefly to glean an answer.

Hey there Eric. It sounds like maybe a comparison between BoosterPlug and the IICE Air is in order. I agree. Ready?

There is no comparison.

That is to say, they are the same thing and there's nothing to compare.

The same thing that is, except for the IICE Air is adjustable. And the temperature offset needs to be adjustable to work with the upcoming IICE Cool.

The BoosterPlug, Accelerator, IICE Air, etc., each offset the temperature input in the same way using the same type of components. Beyond the temperature offset, anything fancy that happens to fuel delivery happens inside the ECU, not at the temperature sensor.

Regarding the linearity question, the product description on the BoosterPlug website centers on linearity. And it makes sense that a product description should focus on relevant performance features. A product's 'claim to fame' as it were.

The thing is, we didn't see that the claim was particularly noteworthy. I mean, given that the competitive products and the IICE Air each do exactly the same thing, then all the products are equally linear.

Equal except for adjustability that is. And adjustability is necessary to work with our future products.

erkmania · 10-07-2011, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poolside

Hey there Eric. It sounds like maybe a comparison between BoosterPlug and the IICE Air is in order. I agree. Ready?

There is no comparison.

That is to say, they are the same thing and there's nothing to compare.

You're just testing me, right? There seems to be at least one feature to compare, i.e. the position of the sensor. I admire that IICE Aire is more adjustable and appreciate that. The BoosterPlug dude (Jen?), however, extolls the alternate virtue that his non-adjustable sensor can be placed where it is most useful. What say you?

I ask my many questions with high regard for your posted background. I suspect the complete answer lies in disclosing a little more about how the IICE Aire and the IICE Cool(ant) work in harmony.

For my part, I have a bike that runs less than ideally and I want some resolution; via the dealer (argh!) or some aftermarket (and, well thought out) devices.

I may have some faith in our beginnings, but I don't assign the same faith to advertising hyperbole.

slipknot · 10-07-2011, 04:54 PM

Would someone tell me when I get the two items I ordered?

MJS · 10-07-2011, 05:02 PM

Quote:

There seems to be at least one feature to compare, i.e. the position of the sensor.

There was a bit of discussion about this. See post 562 http://advrider.com/forums/showpost....&postcount=562 and some of the following posts for a recap.

johnjen · 10-07-2011, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erkmania

You're just testing me, right? There seems to be at least one feature to compare, i.e. the position of the sensor. I admire that IICE Aire is more adjustable and appreciate that. The BoosterPlug dude (Jen?), however, extolls the alternate virtue that his non-adjustable sensor can be placed where it is most useful. What say you?

As listed on the first page of this thread.

Does the location of the sensor make a difference?
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15438749
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15452060
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15453444

I ask my many questions with high regard for your posted background. I suspect the complete answer lies in disclosing a little more about how the IICE Aire and the IICE Cool(ant) work in harmony.

Also listed in the first post of this thread

The product works by itself, and in combination with future products:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14688703

For my part, I have a bike that runs less than ideally and I want some resolution; via the dealer (argh!) or some aftermarket (and, well thought out) devices.

I may have some faith in our beginnings, but I don't assign the same faith to advertising hyperbole.

The 1st post of this thread has links to additional technical questions and answers.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638412

JJ

Poolside · 10-07-2011, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erkmania

I may have some faith in our beginnings, but I don't assign the same faith to advertising hyperbole.

That's good to hear. Because the only advertising hyperbole you'll get around here is a creative spelling of Aire.

BLU HWY · 10-08-2011, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poolside

Assembly report.

Situation normal.

The other day I posted the assembly schedule for the remaining orders.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...0#post16888000

Regarding that schedule, the 1st 30 pieces are on schedule. They went into the epoxy fixtures and finished the first cure stage, and are in the middle of the second cure period and will be shipped after that.

But, early yesterday morning I found out there were a parts change with a vendor, and that caused some issues. JJ and I think we have them worked out. Here's what happened.

I used all the vials during initial testing and these first batches, and had to order more. To me that's pretty exciting, re-ordering parts means the product is a small success!

The current batch of 30 IICE Airs are in the background. The last of the vials went into building them.

I started in doing the prep work for the vials, cutting, drilling etc., and everything was going smoothly. But then I noticed something, these new vials are not the same as the previous ones. The new vial is on the right in the picture below. The new plastic material is semi opaque, compared to the see-through material on the left.

What the heck? Did I order the wrong part number? Nope. Let me check the distributor website. The product picture shown below is from their site, and is the same picture as last time. But this new part has slightly different dimensions than the previous part, and is molded from different material.

The thing is, this new semi-opaque material isn't going to work. I need to see through the side wall of the vial in order to pour the epoxy to the correct level. You can't see much through this new material. Crud. Vendor changes of this sort is common enough when buying from distributors. But either way this is a heck of thing to find out at 3am on Tuesday morning with a deadline in front of you.

Here's why the opaque material is a problem. If you remember from earlier reports, one of the final assembly steps is an epoxy potting process. The assembled IICE Air is mounted in a fixture to keep everything lined up while the epoxy is poured in and cures.

The side wall of the vial must be clear enough to see through. At least well enough to pour the epoxy to the right level, and not overfill it. (Note: The silver wire 'stirrups' soldered into the board and passing through the vial are 'guy wires' to lash the vial firmly in place.)

This is the perfect level. An epoxy overfill will 'flood' the jumper array.

I spent much of the day yesterday trying to locate another source for the previous vial. Then JJ and I talked for a couple of hours about possible solutions. We discussed different ways to fixture the part. Some type of fixture that would hold the part in a way that I could look in through the open cap while pouring the epoxy.

About 2 and half hours into it JJ came up with an idea! Leave it to Marketing!

The excellent plan is to do the epoxy encapsulation in 2 separate pours. First a light pour, maybe 25% of the total amount needed. Let that cure and remove the part from the fixture. The cured epoxy from the first pour will hold everything in place without a fixture. Super! Open the vial cap and complete the second pour. You can see from the picture above, with the cap open, the epoxy level is clearly visible.

Doing a primary 'short pour', and using the epoxy as a fixture, was a stroke of genius JJ!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poolside

Assembly report.

There are 106 pieces in process. Initially it was two batches. 54 and 52.

While doing the first batch (54) I also doubled up on some of the preparation steps. Meaning the prep steps for both batches (54 and 52) were done simultaneously.

The prepping for both batches took longer than if I just did the prep for one. But overall, doing it that way shortened the time for the full 106.

The longest process is the epoxy cure. The assembly requires 2 epoxy steps, and each epoxy cure takes 36 hours. For the first epoxy step the parts need to be fixtured. I have fixtures for 30 pieces.

Here is the schedule for the 2 epoxy steps, final test, packing and shipping. You can see there is overlap. As the first 30 come out of the fixtures, the second 30 take their place, and so on.

1st 30: Cure 1: 9am Mon to 9pm Tues. Cure 2: 9pm Tues to 9am Thurs. Final test. Pack and ship Thursday.
2nd 30: Cure 1: 9pm Tues to 9am Thurs. Cure 2: 9am Thurs to 9pm Fri. Final test. Pack and ship Saturday.
3rd 30: Cure 1: 9am Thurs to 9pm Fri. Cure 2: 9pm Fri to 9am Sun. Final test. Pack and ship Monday.
Last 16: Cure 1: 9pm Fri to 9am Sun. Cure 2: 9am Sun to 9pm Mon. Final test. Pack and ship Tuesday.

Treadless · 10-11-2011, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slipknot

Would someone tell me when I get the two items I ordered?

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnjen

YES!

JJ

.

johnjen · 10-11-2011, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treadless

.

YES!

we will need to hear from manufacturing.

JJ

10-07-2011, 07:55 AM	#1549
Andrew Optimus Primer Joined: Sep 2001 Location: Eastbania Oddometer: 13,934	Aire??? Does Marketing have anything better to do than invent new words for things we already know how to spell? __________________ Splitting lanes, and splitting hairs.

10-07-2011, 04:54 PM	#1554
slipknot Studly Adventurer Joined: Aug 2006 Oddometer: 726	Would someone tell me when I get the two items I ordered? __________________ Nothing is worse than active ignorance. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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