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Old 08-08-2011, 07:24 PM   #76
ebrabaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1fastjunebug View Post
Probably a dumb question, but why did you put a filter on the line that goes to/from the tank?

Part # ??


Doesn't this line carry fumes and overflow raw gasonline from the tank?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Great thread and pictures, thanks ever so much.

Bugley.
Perhaps you are addressing this to me.... With the CC gone.....air going into the tank to relieve spend fuel......need to be filtered....imho. No need to put more gunk in the injectors..... They are having a hard time enough with the pump corrosion from ethanol. If the bike tips over ....fuel will be turned off by the " tip over shut off valve ...located on the top of the tank....where the line departs. Vapor expansion will be relieved via the check valve.....( arrow pointing towards the tank)....which also serves as a liquid blocker.....don`t ask me.....but I tried to push water through it..... could`nt......only vapor....after about 5 psi diff. So I installed said check valve back in the filter. I have a little saturation under the filter.....but nothing to be worried about.... Bought the filter at an automotive store for under $7....US$.


Erling
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:21 PM   #77
señormoto
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Should note that, although the instructions from the OP do not mention this, I found it much easier to remove the canister after I took the chain off of the counter sprocket. Might help someone that is doing this after reading the thread.
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Old 10-25-2011, 11:13 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by themattreid View Post
Should note that, although the instructions from the OP do not mention this, I found it much easier to remove the canister after I took the chain off of the counter sprocket. Might help someone that is doing this after reading the thread.
I didn't have to, but I can see how that would make it easier. For that matter (I don't know if you had to mess with the back wheel to get the chain off) you could just remove the countershaft sprocket.
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:19 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiGS View Post
I didn't have to, but I can see how that would make it easier. For that matter (I don't know if you had to mess with the back wheel to get the chain off) you could just remove the countershaft sprocket.
Yeah, you have to loosen the rear axle and chain adjuster on the drive side, then push the wheel forward a bit to get more slack in the chain. Then you take the chain off of the counter sprocket. I don't believe that taking the CS off without loosening the chain is a good idea.
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Old 10-25-2011, 01:48 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themattreid View Post
Yeah, you have to loosen the rear axle and chain adjuster on the drive side, then push the wheel forward a bit to get more slack in the chain. Then you take the chain off of the counter sprocket. I don't believe that taking the CS off without loosening the chain is a good idea.
I think I've done it when switching to the next size smaller CS sprocket. I'm known for doing things that are not considered good ideas.
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Old 10-25-2011, 06:35 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
After doing another CC vasectomy on a friends brand new 8gs..... I did a little more playing around with the Little valve about 8 inches from the tank.... As I had mentioned before i a few diff. posts.... My valve during earlier testing was found to relieve pressure away from the tank after about 5 psi was applied on the tank side..( against the arrow). I was curious as to how the valve work....since it vent`s freely towards the tank to relieve any vacuum. Looks/sounds like there is a small ball in there and a neutral point where gasses can flow free in either direction...... The catch..... flow rate needs to be very slow away from the tank...... Blow slow....and the valve will flow free against the arrow......Blow a little faster....ball seats...and flow stops.... Perhaps BMW thought that fuel vapors will pass freely to vent the tank....and if liquid entered from the tank the valve will in fact shut and prevent fuel from entering the CC...... In that discovery..... I remounted my valve in the spectra filter......angled up...slightly....and fuel vapors are in fact flowing free away from the tank. This is just my observation....nothing else.....Most likely won`t make any difference...... Never the less.... That`s what I did.

Erling


For me, this little valve is the smoking gun. I experienced the water-uptake through the original non-T'd vent hose, A second vent in the manner of the BMW recall fixed that. The issue I still have on occasion that I suspect may be caused by this little valve is that a huge amount of pressure can sometimes build in the tank. At one point I opened a recently filled tank and fuel exploded out all over me. What I suspect is that sometimes a bit of fuel reaches that check valve and stops it up, then the pressure that builds inside the tank can be really serious. Erling's experiments suggest to me that it might be good to arrange for that little valve to point up somehow, so it is 'self bailing'. I've played with it my self and it is really picky, it locks up solid very easily. I've previously thought about just removing it all together. Why would you ever WANT 5psi in your fuel tank, especially if it's an entirely variable parameter? If it were removed though, the tip-over valve would be the only defense against liquid fuel reaching the CC, so it'd probably be better to help the valve work the way it was intended.

we've seen that the valve is the same on the Euro bikes, the only difference is the presence or absence of the CC. I wonder though if the hose that carries that check valve lies differently on the euro bikes, since it's running to the bottom of the bike rather than to the CC? from what I remember, (and I can't look at my bike right now), it doesn't seem like it should be any different, but maybe?
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Old 10-26-2011, 08:32 AM   #82
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I agree with single.... That check valve is made to work in conjunction with the suction created by the manifold vacuum when the purge valve opens. You see... the pressure needed to open said check valve from the tank and out..... is not needed. As soon as the slightest vacuum is applied to the side away from the tank it opens and vents. Basically...there should never be so much positive pressure in the tank that you can hear a swooooosh when its opened. This is speculation on my behalf..... But... I think it will hold up.....

Erling
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Old 10-26-2011, 09:28 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
I agree with single.... That check valve is made to work in conjunction with the suction created by the manifold vacuum when the purge valve opens. You see... the pressure needed to open said check valve from the tank and out..... is not needed. As soon as the slightest vacuum is applied to the side away from the tank it opens and vents. Basically...there should never be so much positive pressure in the tank that you can hear a swooooosh when its opened. This is speculation on my behalf..... But... I think it will hold up.....

Erling
I've felt this was the real culprit of tanks splitting over here for quite a while. I haven't removed it, yet, but I may.


What do you think the downside of removing it would be?
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:06 AM   #84
ebrabaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiGS View Post
I've felt this was the real culprit of tanks splitting over here for quite a while. I haven't removed it, yet, but I may.


What do you think the downside of removing it would be?
None..... I can n ot come up with one reasonable answer as to why BMW want's up to 5 psi in the tank. I have asked several tech's.... and got answers like.... " in case fuel goes in there due to an overfill of the tank....then that valve will close"...... But then explain how the CC get's saturated with fuel......... On bikes before the CC vasectomy.... There will be pressure on the tank when the bike sits in the sun with the engine off....... Only the engine's consumption of fuel..( which is not much since there are not a fuel return at the injector stations) and the opening of the purge valve ( applying a slight vacuum on the top of the Carbon plug in the CC) will alleviate the positive tank pressure. I have tried both..... All I observe..... Is the garage smells more of gasoline due to more vapors escaping when I park it after a ride....... Than when the valve is installed..... But there are no more smell than when I park the smaller DS rides.....
IMHO.... NOT NEEDED......

Erling
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Old 10-27-2011, 09:33 PM   #85
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[QUOTE=YetiGS;
What do you think the downside of removing it would be?[/QUOTE]


The only downside I can think of is the potential for fuel to make it's way into the CC and flood it. That isn't going to happen in a tip-over, because the tip-over cut-off valve is still in place. It would only happen with a super full tank and a build-up of of pressure combined with the vacuum through the CC breather & into the intakes. If what's happening is that fuel is reaching this valve and stopping it up, then we know fuel will go into the CC if the valve isn't there. It seems like it only takes the tiniest bit of fuel to stop the valve, so often the amount that reached the CC would be no problem, but if conditions were right (hot day, rough road, full tank), it could flood the canister.

One solution would be to remove the valve AND ditch the CC, obviously the preferred solution for some.

Another would be what I proposed above; to find a way to reposition the OEM valve so it is self-draining & sticks less easily. It seems like you wouldn't want it too far from the tank vent though, in case the section of hose between the valve and he tank did fill with fuel.

A third option would be to fit a different valve, like the ones found in MX tank breather hoses. Those are designed to do the same thing, and might simply work better than the OEM valve seems to. I had explored doing this a while back, but did not because they seemed just as restrictive. Ebrabaek's experiments make me tempted to go back to this idea though, since restriction isn't the problem so much as intermittent total blockage. Interesting to note though that those valves are often fitted in a vertical position right atop the tank, not lying down horizontally like the BMW valve.
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:11 PM   #86
señormoto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack_mind View Post

The only downside I can think of is the potential for fuel to make it's way into the CC and flood it. That isn't going to happen in a tip-over, because the tip-over cut-off valve is still in place. It would only happen with a super full tank and a build-up of of pressure combined with the vacuum through the CC breather & into the intakes. If what's happening is that fuel is reaching this valve and stopping it up, then we know fuel will go into the CC if the valve isn't there. It seems like it only takes the tiniest bit of fuel to stop the valve, so often the amount that reached the CC would be no problem, but if conditions were right (hot day, rough road, full tank), it could flood the canister.

One solution would be to remove the valve AND ditch the CC, obviously the preferred solution for some.

Another would be what I proposed above; to find a way to reposition the OEM valve so it is self-draining & sticks less easily. It seems like you wouldn't want it too far from the tank vent though, in case the section of hose between the valve and he tank did fill with fuel.

A third option would be to fit a different valve, like the ones found in MX tank breather hoses. Those are designed to do the same thing, and might simply work better than the OEM valve seems to. I had explored doing this a while back, but did not because they seemed just as restrictive. Ebrabaek's experiments make me tempted to go back to this idea though, since restriction isn't the problem so much as intermittent total blockage. Interesting to note though that those valves are often fitted in a vertical position right atop the tank, not lying down horizontally like the BMW valve.
All of the talk so far seems overly complicated - tanks have had vents/valves for overflow and tip over for decades and they've (almost) never had the issues that the F800GS is having. My vote it to try out a standard MX style valve and see what happens when the bike is on its side. I might have one lying around in the parts bin somewhere...
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Old 10-28-2011, 06:45 AM   #87
Singletrack_mind
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themattreid View Post
All of the talk so far seems overly complicated - tanks have had vents/valves for overflow and tip over for decades and they've (almost) never had the issues that the F800GS is having. My vote it to try out a standard MX style valve and see what happens when the bike is on its side. I might have one lying around in the parts bin somewhere...


I agree, real experimentation is what we need. Let us know what you find out.

I'm not so worried about what happens when the bike's on it's side though, since the fuel tank pressurization happens in all sorts of situations where the bike hasn't been crashed. The tip-over cut-off inside the tank should keep fuel from flowing into the vent tube when the bike's down.
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Old 10-28-2011, 06:50 AM   #88
ebrabaek
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Just wanted to mention that in addition to removing the check valve.....I removed the CC as well. I have not tested the functionality of the valve when liquid enters it..... But have heard by many that that is a function of said valve. We have heard countless times about overfilling the tank....and that one should not do that..... In connection with the F/I issue.... So somehow that theory is not bullet proof... Simply because if this valve would prevent fuel from going into the CC when the tank is overfilled...... with so many riders doing exactly that......it proves that said valve in fact does not keep liquds from entering the CC. All that said..... I was nervous about me goofing and overfilling the tank....and would overflow into the area under the seat, where I have the vent...and filter. So I deliberately filled the tank to the tip top.....and closed the cap....rode around the neighborhood to see if I could spill the fuel....... And even after sitting for a while...... Nothing came out. I have had mine off for about 18 months now.....ridden through some rough stuff......but all I get is a small sheen of dirt around the filter under the seat which I just clean periodically. Works well for me......

Erling
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Old 10-28-2011, 07:02 AM   #89
ebrabaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack_mind View Post

The only downside I can think of is the potential for fuel to make it's way into the CC and flood it. That isn't going to happen in a tip-over, because the tip-over cut-off valve is still in place. It would only happen with a super full tank and a build-up of of pressure combined with the vacuum through the CC breather & into the intakes. If what's happening is that fuel is reaching this valve and stopping it up, then we know fuel will go into the CC if the valve isn't there. It seems like it only takes the tiniest bit of fuel to stop the valve, so often the amount that reached the CC would be no problem, but if conditions were right (hot day, rough road, full tank), it could flood the canister.

One solution would be to remove the valve AND ditch the CC, obviously the preferred solution for some.

Another would be what I proposed above; to find a way to reposition the OEM valve so it is self-draining & sticks less easily. It seems like you wouldn't want it too far from the tank vent though, in case the section of hose between the valve and he tank did fill with fuel.

A third option would be to fit a different valve, like the ones found in MX tank breather hoses. Those are designed to do the same thing, and might simply work better than the OEM valve seems to. I had explored doing this a while back, but did not because they seemed just as restrictive. Ebrabaek's experiments make me tempted to go back to this idea though, since restriction isn't the problem so much as intermittent total blockage. Interesting to note though that those valves are often fitted in a vertical position right atop the tank, not lying down horizontally like the BMW valve.
Bingo.... When I was running the valve...... That is what I did.... Note the angle of the filter....




Erling
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:50 PM   #90
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To the folks asking "why remove this?".....

Have you ever experienced "surging", or generally poor fueling at low throttle openings, especially over rough ground? Now take a look at the diagram on page 1, and note that you have a relatively direct path from the fuel tank to the throttle bodies (via the canister). On every bike I've owned with these warts, I've had this same surging issue at low throttle openings (my Guzzi was the worst in this respect).

The cause is because as fuel sloshes around in your tank, some of it (and certainly the vapors, or partially evaporated fuel) gets sucked right into the throttle bodies and added to the fuel mix that had previously been oh-so-carefully metered out by a very sophisticated system of fuel injectors, sensors, and computers. As a result, you get randomly rich mixtures going kaboom, resulting in less-than-ideal performance. I give BMW credit for trying to minimize this via the pressure valve, but as you all have seen, that can cause other unwelcome issues (cracked tanks, fuel baths, etc.). Remove the wart, and these problems go away (at the expense of fuel vapor entering the atmosphere....but that's a whole 'nother bucket of worms that won't be solved until fossil-based fuels are eliminated ).

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