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Old 12-13-2011, 07:16 PM   #1
roger 04 rt OP
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2004 R1150RT Wideband O2 Sensor Project

Hello to everyone here. I'm new to the forum as a member but have been reading the many excellent posts that have helped me fine tune a 2004 R1150RT that I bought this summer. The bike has about 28K miles and I've done just about everything needed to bring the bike to spec: TBB, Valves, Autolite Plugs, Cam Tensioner, Idle, study with GS-911, added a BoosterPlug for Open Loop mode (before I spotted the Hotrod thread), Fluids, Filters, SignalMinder, high-comfort-seat, etc. For the most part the bike runs great and is a pleasure to drive, maybe it needs shocks.

One of the things I've noticed is that while this motorcycle doesn't seem to surge, it runs stronger cold than after it warms to the point where the O2 sensor kicks in and allows Closed Loop operation by the Motronic ECU--when that happens it seems a bit like it's being held back. The feeling is much like a plane I flew when the mixture was leaned a too much. And I've read a lot here and on other boards about the surging and the root causes.

I have been interested in seeing how much time the bike spends in Closed Loop mode and to that end have ridden with my GS-911 datalogging to my PC. In the posts that follow, I will share that data. In the meantime, the data has led me to implement a programmable Closed Loop O2 sensor (Innovate Motorsports LC-1) that will allow me to shift Lambda and AFR. It uses a Wideband O2 sensor by Bosch but also has a Narrow Band output that simulates the stock sensor. The difference is that the "switching point" of the Narrow Band mode can be programmed. This will allow me to try richer (and leaner out of curiosity) Lambda/AFR points.

Data follows in the next few posts.

Roger
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Old 12-13-2011, 07:17 PM   #2
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First Test Ride

Yesterday I plugged in my GS-911 Diagnostic Tool, interfaced it to a small Netbook PC via Bluetooth and took some rides to gather data after the bike warmed up. On the first couple rides I lost the Bluetooth connection but the third time I got some useful data by bungy-cording the PC to the rear seat.

The bike was fully warmed up at the start. Here are the results:

Length of ride: About 15 minutes.
Course: Winding, hilly local roads.
Gears/Speeds: All six gears, many speed and gear changes, from Wide Open to Closed Throttle, up to 70 MPH

Data Points: A little over 1,000 sets of data of all functions logged by the 911 during the 15 minute ride.
RPM: 1100 to 5500;

Fuel Injection Pulse: 2ms to 3.5ms usually, peak of 4.6 ms
***45 points were 0.00ms, meaning the injectors were shut off. This occurred during abrupt deceleration.

Tank Venting: Tank venting was enabled by the Motronic about 3 minutes into the ride, then on for 5 minutes, then off for three minutes, then on again. (I included this just because I found it interesting.)

Fuel Pump: On all the time, as expected

And now the data I was looking for:
Closed Loop operation: The Motronic was Closed Loop 48% of the ride, as I mentioned, it was a winding hilly, many gear and throttle change trip. On a highway trip I would expect a higher percentage of closed loop operation, perhaps tomorrow I'll give that a try.

What this tells me is that no matter what other change you make to the motorcycle, the Motronic will be insisting on an AFR between 14.5 and 15 to 1 (approx), and be centered on a lean 14.7:1 most of the time.

I don't know what results I'll get, but it looks worth giving a programmable Narrow Band O2 sensor a try.
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Old 12-13-2011, 07:17 PM   #3
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Second Test Ride

Yesterday I made a 20 minute trip for parts and rode more like a normal commuting trip. Here's the 911 closed loop info. Today or tomorrow I plan to take a highway ride cruising between 55 and 75 MPH.

Data Points: 1,600
Driving RPM Range: 2,500 to 3,500 (roughly)
Fuel Tank Vent: Open 60% of trip
Injector On Time: 2.2 ms average, 2-3.5 ms range
Injectors Fully Off: 3.5% of trip

Closed Loop O2: 55% of trip

So lot's of time in Closed Loop. Also makes me wonder how the bike would run if the injectors weren't turned fully off but just went to a minimum value.
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Old 12-13-2011, 07:18 PM   #4
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Third Test Ride

Just made a 20 minute local trip at higher RPM. Here's the 911 closed loop info. Tomorrow I plan to take a highway ride cruising between 55 and 75 MPH.

Data Points: 1,400
Driving RPM Range: 3,700 to 5,500 (roughly)

Injectors Fully Off: 3.2% of trip

Open Loop Until Engine Temp: 47 degrees C (115F)
Closed Loop O2: only 25% of trip after reaching 47 C

Compared to the Lower RPM run in the previous trip Closed Loop time was much less 25% (higher average RPMs) vs 55% (lower RPMs). Many posters here and other places recommend running the R1150RT at higher RPMs, this has the effect of running a richer average AFR because the motorcycle is Open Loop.

Also, I felt that the bike is "stronger" when it is cold. That feeling makes sense given that it stays Open Loop with richer mixtures until the engine temp reaches (about) 115F. (Wonder if it stays Open Loop if I put a fixed resistor on the Oil Temp Sensor?)

If anyone has an old and/or dead R1150RT O2 Sensor, please PM me. I would like to purchase it for the connector so that I can build a Wide Band replacement system. Thanks.
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Old 12-13-2011, 07:21 PM   #5
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Highway Test Ride

Made the highway run yesterday. Data below.

Data Points: 2,100

Driving RPM Range: 3,700 to 5,000 (roughly)
Injectors Fully Off: 3.3% of trip

Closed Loop O2: 47% of trip, up to 80% in steady throttle cruise

I observed two new things from this trip.

1. The highest correlation for closed loop operation is when the TPS (Throttle position) is steady. (I guess that shouldn't be a surprise.)

2. The Motronic will go into Closed Loop mode while the bike is accelerating through the gears. As each new gear was engaged, the Motronic started in Open Loop operation (richest mixture) but would go Closed Loop (leaner mixture) while accelerating. This surprised me. When the bike is cold, it remains Open Loop. My thinking is this is why the motorcycle seems more driveable cold vs hot.

In the chart below (RPM, TPS and Lambda On/Off) you can see the effect of accelerating through a few gears in traffic on the left side (to 5th gear) of the chart (and dealing with changes in traffic speed). On the right half of the chart (to 6th gear), the bike is in "throttle-locked" cruise, more or less. It is in closed loop a lot of the time.

If anyone has an old and/or dead R1150RT O2 Sensor, please PM me. I would like to purchase it for the connector so that I can build a Wide Band replacement system. Thanks.

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Old 12-13-2011, 07:23 PM   #6
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Cold Engine Shift

Cold Engine Takeoff, bike feels strong, no sense of lag or surge. Lambda sensor is Open Loop.

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Old 12-13-2011, 07:24 PM   #7
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Low RPM Warm Engine Shifts

Warm Engine Takeoff, bike feels okay but slightly hesitant before shift to next higher gear. Lambda sensor goes Closed Loop (lean) in middle of acceleration. (Numbered points are: Throttle Open #1 &4, Clutch Engaged #2 & 5, Lambda Closed Loop #3 & 6.)

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Old 12-13-2011, 07:25 PM   #8
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Highway Shifts

Warm Engine Highway Acceleration, bike feels good but note that Motronic goes Closed Loop (lean mixture) in middle of acceleration. (Numbered points are: Throttle Open #1, Acceleration #2, Lambda Closed Loop #3.)

I am surprised at the times during acceleration at low and high speeds/RPMs that the Motronic chooses to go Closed Loop.

I've ordered an Innovative Motorsports LC-1 and will see what the feel of a richer Closed Loop AFR is. I expect to notice it most under warm engine start-off conditions under 3,500 RPM.

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Old 12-13-2011, 08:02 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by BOETJE View Post
Yep , your data corresponde realy well with mine.
Last year I tried my R1150RS 04, with and without the booster plug
I did all the data logging with the Innovate LM2 and fitted the sensor before the cat. I Noticed that the ECU did an admirable job keeping the mixture at Lamda = 1 Even dureing normal acceleration it was kept there.
Only at full throttle, and , even then momentarily, the mixture would drop
to Lamda = 0.85. Hardly any differnece between booster plug and OE.
My conclusion : The ECU is much smarter then most people think...
That's just the point. Once the ECU with stock O2 sensor goes closed loop lambda will equal 1. That's why I'm going to let the LC-1 drive the Motronic Then I can adjust closed loop lambda.

Air temp modifiers affect open loop, including making a favorable change in afr when e10 fuel is used. E10 is a leaner mixture open loop (closed loop lambda is still 1!) but booster and iice richen open loop and therefore compensate for e10

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Old 12-13-2011, 08:21 PM   #10
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Looks like the makings of a great thread, Roger! Good job!

On the strip chart, the state called 'Lambda = 1' doesn't necessarily mean that the ECU is driving toward stoichiometry of 14.7:1. Instead, Lambda = 1 means that the ECU is operating in closed loop. And conversely, when Lambda = 0 it means that the ECU is operating in open loop. Neither of those states confer or imply a target mixture.

Did you capture the O2 sensor voltage data as well? The GS-911 provides that information. The O2 sensor voltage data falls within the range of 0.0V to 1.0V. If Excel allows it, the O2 voltage numbers may need scaling for it to display in a readable way. Or perhaps the O2 voltage can use the Lambda zero-to-one scale.


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Old 12-14-2011, 08:35 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Looks like the makings of a great thread, Roger! Good job!

On the strip chart, the state called 'Lambda = 1' doesn't necessarily mean that the ECU is driving toward stoichiometry of 14.7:1. Instead, Lambda = 1 means that the ECU is operating in closed loop. And conversely, when Lambda = 0 it means that the ECU is operating in open loop. Neither of those states confer or imply a target mixture.

Did you capture the O2 sensor voltage data as well? The GS-911 provides that information. The O2 sensor voltage data falls within the range of 0.0V to 1.0V. If Excel allows it, the O2 voltage numbers may need scaling for it to display in a readable way. Or perhaps the O2 voltage can use the Lambda zero-to-one scale.

Closed Loop means the ECU is headed to a target mixture that oscillates around 14.7 for gasoline without ethanol. Most interesting is the dive to lean which occurs during the transition to Cloaed Loop during acceleration. I have the voltage data and will show some new interesting charts tomorrow. Roger
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:54 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post

Closed Loop means the ECU is headed to a target mixture that oscillates around 14.7 for gasoline without ethanol. Most interesting is the dive to lean which occurs during the transition to Cloaed Loop during acceleration. I have the voltage data and will show some new interesting charts tomorrow.
Ok, you are limiting the term 'Closed Loop'. I'm just trying to slow down the erroneous conclusion rate.

I can't offhand recall the data rate (sweep speed) of the GS-911. Do you know what it is?

On the charts you posted, is the X axis in seconds?


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Old 12-15-2011, 04:06 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Ok, you are limiting the term 'Closed Loop'. I'm just trying to slow down the erroneous conclusion rate.

I can't offhand recall the data rate (sweep speed) of the GS-911. Do you know what it is?

On the charts you posted, is the X axis in seconds?

Good questions. And honestly, some of the sampling statistics are at the limit of my "pay grade".

When I use the term Closed Loop, I'm referring to the times when the Motronic ECU is using the O2 Sensor output to create a mixture that oscillates between a slightly richer mixture than 14.7:1 and a slightly leaner mixture. Here is a generic chart of a Closed Loop waveform for those who haven't seen one (I've added the asterisks which I'll come back to in a moment:



The sampling period of the GS-911 varies and had a median time of 0.64 seconds (640 mS) in the Highway Test Ride data set. This is slower than one would like, and it makes interpreting data that changes more rapidly than every few seconds more difficult. However longer term trends such as the shift in and out of Closed Loop mode are easier to see. Averages can also be computed. The key point is that the charts aren't quite like what one would see with an oscilloscope. Here is a chart of sampling times from one run:



So going back to the first chart and looking at the asterisks, you can see that if those were the points that the GS-911 logged, you would not see the full picture. However, if you group all data points taken during Closed Loop times, you could compute the Average Voltage value which I did for the Highway Test Ride data set.

Average Closed Loop Lambda Voltage: 414 mV based on 994 data points taken during all Closed Loop conditions. This is as expected and implies a pure gas Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) of 14.7:1 (approx). This suggests that during closed loop the O2 sensor and ECU are toggling between richer and leaner than 14.7:1 like the generic chart above shows.

RB
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Old 12-15-2011, 04:50 AM   #14
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Interesting New Charts

Here are some charts related to the stock Lambda Sensor voltages sampled by the GS-911 during the Highway Test Ride.

First a Pareto Chart of Lambda voltages during Open Loop:



You can see that in the Open Loop periods, the Motronic spent most of its time fueling a richer than Stoic mixture (600 mV and greater). There were also times during deceleration that it dropped to a leaner mixture (below 450 mV) and even times when the fuel was cut-off.

Next is a chart of Lambda Voltage during a Local Ride while the bike warmed up.



You can see that the bike stayed above 450 mV and nicely rich. The rider (me) enjoyed the smoothness and responsiveness and went through the gears briskly.

Next is a chart of a fairly well behaved highway trip. If you look at the Lambda voltages you can see them toggling high and low during Closed Loop and if you look closely you can see the Motronic going Open Loop (points a., b., c., d.) and richer during a couple quick gear changes (#1, #2).



Lastly, here is a chart of a lower RPM pair of shifts with the bike warmed up. You can see at point (a.) the throttle has been opened, at point (b.) the RPM sagged related to the ECU going Closed Loop (c.), and with plenty of lean Lambda voltages (d.) although the Lambda voltage may be toggling during this period and it can't be seen do to the slower sampling rate issue that I mentioned in the prior post. Still you can see it has gone Closed Loop and there are plenty of lean points. Then you can see the same thing happen again in (e., f. and g.).



So since the motorcycle is going to enter Closed Loop at times (like acceleration) when one would prefer a richer mixture (as it is before the bike Oil Temp sensor warms and allows Closed Loop), I will head back to the shop to finish installiing the Wideband LC-1 to see how the bike runs with a richer Closed Loop mixture range. Time to stop writing and start working!
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Old 12-16-2011, 03:58 PM   #15
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Thanks for posting the charts. There appears to be a good amount of sample speed aliasing. Do you know if the sample speed (aka: scan rate) is any higher if fewer 'channels' are selected? You know, like uncheck the boxes for the data you don't want. I think that might have increased the scan rate for the GS-911, but I can't recall.

Was the fuel injector pulsewidth, or fuel rate, collected? If the resolution is high enough it might be useful as well. In order to see small changes better you might need to put some gain into the data, and shift the signal with some offset, then limit the y-axis range when building the chart. (Excel techniques to increase the y-axis resolution)


Edit: ooops, I meant y-axis


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