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Old 12-14-2011, 12:44 PM   #121
JRWooden
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[QUOTE=vtbob;17513698]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
Since the oil cools the cover, and the coolant cools the oil, I would hope that whole mess should never exceed 200F?

As a high-side estimate I would guess (hope?) that the side cover never exceeds ~250F / 120C.) end quote


I believe most water / oil cooled engine design try to keep oil tempature above 225F so it is above the boiling point for water. This make any water in the oil, water is a combustion by product, boil off and vent. I believe the top temperature is around 275F. Synthetic oil can tolerate higher. The temperature range between these is normal.

This makes sense in a water oil cooled engine as the water temp(under pressure so it is higher) is limited by venting/blow off at around 230F.

It is clear that the oil is always (nearly anyway) hotter that the water so the water cools the oil.


In reading all these post it would seem ( but not enough facts to say for sure ) that the problem is in failing regulators and the burning of the stators is a symptom of that failure.

The write up on the SCR (fail short) and FET(fail open) failure modes ring true to me. Does any one know of a FET based regulator as a replacement for the stock unit?

I'm planing on a taking my 17K mile bike on a 10K mile trip to alaska next spring....so that replacement regulator may be prudent
vtbob:

The (radiator) thermostat opens @ 185F ... I don't see another thermostat in the system that would "work" to keep the oil hotter than coolant, but there could be one hidden away... not sure what the coolant flow pattern is so the coolant flowing to the oil cooler might be right off the engine and thus be somewhat hotter than 185F not sure how much hotter....

If I understand how the OEM regulator functions then the stator is always working at 100% of it's capacity (for the RPM at which it is running) shorting any electrical current not needed to ground. I no electrical engineer, nor did I stay at a holiday inn last nite So I have to ask ... would it be possible for the regulator to fail in such a way as to make things WORSE for the stator ( worse than running flat-out all the time)?
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Old 12-14-2011, 02:53 PM   #122
vtbob
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Yes it is pretty typical to let the engine water warm to something like 185F before the "hot" water is cooled by the radiator.This keep the engine temps up for better consistant combustion and help emission.

I suspect..but do not know...that there is a similar, but smaller, thermostat in the oil gallery that does not let oil into the oil/water heat exchanger until the engine oil is also up to temp.. I would suspect this open at some thing around 225F.

Maybe some one who has access to BMW engine docs could confirm or correct.

Thanks for the additional comments on the stator and alternator. Yes it is my guess/bias that the regulator is the root cause. I'm not disputing the gentleman who makes the statement that regulators seldom fail. His experience is certain at least as valid as mine.

The problem is that I don't think anyone on this blog has really run this problem to ground yet....atleast not that I can wrap my head..sometimes foggy...around.

Still waiting for someone to solve this problem.

vtbob screwed with this post 12-14-2011 at 03:03 PM
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Old 12-14-2011, 02:56 PM   #123
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Lots or motorcycles have stator failures. I follow the Buell threads, they have the problem.
At first they thought it was the type of oil some users were running. It is well known that at higher temps, GL5 will plate the stator with the phosphorus that is in the oil
I have installed several in Honda street bikes. One thing they all have in common is the type regulator where the stator runs at full output all the time, with the extra voltage going to ground.

I believe it is heat related. I think I read many pages ago Joel saying he thought one thing that contributed to it was lack of oil for cooling.
Not sure I would use a cover that is an isolator. The pipes actually pass under the cover as well as the center case in the same area where the stator is.
I like the idea of taking a piece of sheet metal of some kind and make a heat guard that has an air gap on both sides of it. Weather it mounts to the exhaust or the engine depends on the convenience of mounting locations. This shield would catch a lot of the radiated heat, then be air cooled by the air passing between the pipe and shield as you move.

I am not an engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night
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Old 12-14-2011, 02:56 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
I am not in the business and I am far from an expert, just did a lot of research on the topic on a rainy day as I know that it's a problem on the F-series bikes.

The R/R you would want to buy is the Compufire 55402, it's three phase and made to handle 40 amps. About $180 delivered in the States if you look around online. I have been thinking about trying one from all the positive feedback I have read (it also lower oil temps!) but it's a bit of a pain from here as nobody in Europe sells them. If anybody wants to order one and is willing to forward one to me (of course I cover shipping) please let me know!


Wiring would be very simple, three phases from the stator, then power and ground.


So, this would go in between the stator and the power leads that go to the rest of the bike? How would this keep the stator from frying exactly?

Here it is on amazon, they might be able to do international shipping: http://www.amazon.com/Compu-Fire-Reg.../dp/B0035U7LRM
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Old 12-14-2011, 03:43 PM   #125
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Here is the ones they are putting on the 3 phase Buell systems.
http://roadstercycle.com/Shindengen%...rade%20kit.htm
http://www.compufire.com/index.php?o...&id=2&Itemid=6
(about 1/2 way down the page)
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Old 12-17-2011, 04:33 PM   #126
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3rd Stator fried !! now I am UPSET !!

Yes it happened again, the second rebuilt stator experienced that same fault again, one of the phases burned!
And again when I am 1200 km from home base!! At least the LED that I installed warned me with enough time that I could find a hotel.
I will buy a new stator this time, just ordered this one. http://www.electrosport.com/street-b...phase-102.html
This will take a few weeks to get here and meanwhile I have to ride about 2000 km to get to my place, so I purchased a car battery that I connected in parallel with the bike's battery. Together they gave me like 6 hours of riding today. Found an hotel, and a auto electric shop that will recharge both batteries tonight, so that tomorrow will need to make another 400km and so on for the next 4 days !!! That bike is getting a nightmare. because I also noticed that the valve cover is leaking on the left side, another known issue on these bikes. gee I bought this bike to travel, but wondering now with all these issues!
I don't know what could be the cause of this problem, I guess I will purchase the compufire regulator as well, in case the problem is related to the regulator, I would hate to burn the new stator
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Old 12-17-2011, 09:38 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C5! View Post
Yes it happened again, the second rebuilt stator experienced that same fault again, one of the phases burned!....
Wouldn't a BMW diagnosis using their computer be a lot cheaper than parts replacements to locate the fault?

Fred
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Old 12-17-2011, 10:44 PM   #128
JoelWisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
Wouldn't a BMW diagnosis using their computer be a lot cheaper than parts replacements to locate the fault?

Fred
There are no fault codes for the stator or regulator. We can see high and low voltage codes, but they don't tell us what is wrong.

BMW has no idea why so many stators are failing on the F800GS. The German colleague I respect the most has no idea whats killing them but thinks it's fairly common on bikes, which it is. The USA guy I respect the most thinks it is duff stators. The USA guy I respect the least thinks it is faulty regulators causing it, which it could be but that same regulator is used on other makes that are NOT seeing high failure rates. I think it is an oiling issue, i.e. the stator is not receiving enough splash oil to cool effectively and I now know there is no nozzle cooling it. ADV community seems to think it is radiant heat from the exhaust.

In short, theres plenty of guessing myself included but no certainty.

The average BMW tech doesn't know an ohm from a watt, though there are exceptions.

I'm sure this will get sorted, and hopefully soon.

My current best hope is that the stator can hold up to the high voltages series regulators create. Hopefully someone takes the plunge and tries one. Unfortunately the only quick news we could get is bad as it will take 50,000 miles to know for sure.

On a positive note, the vast majority of stators are making it at least 30,000 miles :)
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Old 12-18-2011, 10:17 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C5! View Post
Yes it happened again, the second rebuilt stator experienced that same fault again, one of the phases burned!
And again when I am 1200 km from home base!! At least the LED that I installed warned me with enough time that I could find a hotel.
I will buy a new stator this time, just ordered this one. http://www.electrosport.com/street-b...phase-102.html
This will take a few weeks to get here and meanwhile I have to ride about 2000 km to get to my place, so I purchased a car battery that I connected in parallel with the bike's battery. Together they gave me like 6 hours of riding today. Found an hotel, and a auto electric shop that will recharge both batteries tonight, so that tomorrow will need to make another 400km and so on for the next 4 days !!! That bike is getting a nightmare. because I also noticed that the valve cover is leaking on the left side, another known issue on these bikes. gee I bought this bike to travel, but wondering now with all these issues!
I don't know what could be the cause of this problem, I guess I will purchase the compufire regulator as well, in case the problem is related to the regulator, I would hate to burn the new stator

The stator pictured is reported to be 20% more powerful than stock yet produces 300 Watts. BMW claims 400 stock. It is listed for the F800 so it should fit the GS. Whats up?
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:48 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
There are no fault codes for the stator or regulator. We can see high and low voltage codes, but they don't tell us what is wrong.

BMW has no idea why so many stators are failing on the F800GS. The German colleague I respect the most has no idea whats killing them but thinks it's fairly common on bikes, which it is. The USA guy I respect the most thinks it is duff stators. The USA guy I respect the least thinks it is faulty regulators causing it, which it could be but that same regulator is used on other makes that are NOT seeing high failure rates. I think it is an oiling issue, i.e. the stator is not receiving enough splash oil to cool effectively and I now know there is no nozzle cooling it. ADV community seems to think it is radiant heat from the exhaust.

)
Joel, please could you explain how is the cooling of the stator? there is no oil bath because when you remove the cover, there is very little oil escaping. If not where and how would it return to the carter?

As for the fault, when the technician disassembled the 2nd stator, the one he rewinded, he said the fault was coming from only one phase and he blamed tthe connector between the alternator and the regulator ?!?! This 3rd stator also failed on one phase, I have 2 equal voltages between ground and these 2 phases and a much smaller one between ground and the 3rd phase, sorry i don't remember the numbers. So I would think that in my case the fault doesn't come from radiant heat from the exhaust, because all 3 phases would be affected then.
There is obviously a cooling problem, I am riding 90% of the time in 30-33 degrees temperatures, maybe it was calculated for northern hemisphere weather.

Evidently it is not very cost effective to find the fault changing components, but as the next stator will be the 4th one, if there is indeed a fault in the regulator, i would be very upset to loose that 4th stator. nThat is why I am thinking of buying that compufire one. Are the stators on Harley's so different that they withstand the voltage peaks of a series regulator?
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:55 PM   #131
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Soon as my f650gs is out of warrantee I am going to switch out the regulator to a compufire.
But heh I got 2 more years till then. Maybe BMW will have a fix before then but not holding my breath.
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Old 12-18-2011, 01:52 PM   #132
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I recently had my stator rebuilt and the company that did the work also cycle/stress tested the the reg/rect.
They were very amused when I told them I got 70,000km out of the stator, they recommend getting the next rebuild done between 30,000 and 40,000km, rather then waiting for it to die. So next time I do my spark plugs I'll be buying a 2nd stator and then just alternate between both of them.
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Old 12-18-2011, 01:53 PM   #133
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After wrapping my exhaust the alternator cover temperature went from 230 degrees (not wrapped) to 185 degrees (wrapped) - this was after 100 miles of hard riding. My third stator is holding up pretty well. 1st stator (OME) lasted 50,000 miles, second stator - (OME but re-wound) lasted 200 miles. Now at 53,000 miles and so far so good. We'll see. I think the exhaust wrap will do the trick - and it is a cheap fix. Only another 50,000 miles will tell.

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Old 12-18-2011, 03:18 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCowboy View Post
After wrapping my exhaust the alternator cover temperature went from 230 degrees (not wrapped) to 185 degrees (wrapped) - this was after 100 miles of hard riding. My third stator is holding up pretty well. 1st stator (OME) lasted 50,000 miles, second stator - (OME but re-wound) lasted 200 miles. Now at 53,000 miles and so far so good. We'll see. I think the exhaust wrap will do the trick - and it is a cheap fix. Only another 50,000 miles will tell.

TheCowboy
Tks cowboy. looks like i should go this way as well. How much work did it require to do the wrap, did you have to remove the headers, etc... needed new gaskets? there are all kind of wraps, fiberglass, titanium, etc.. I have no experience whatsoever in exhaust wraps, anyone better than the other?
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Old 12-18-2011, 06:00 PM   #135
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I wonder what the temp dif of the stator area is is with and without skid plate?
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