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Old 12-21-2011, 06:05 AM   #31
Poolside
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post

I had a single-probe EGT (exhaust gas temperature) system which I later upgraded to a 6 probe (one per cylinder) gauge.

In flight leaning:
Best Power Setting: from the Full Rich setting, lean mixture to peak EGT (first cylinder to peak in a 6 probe system), then richen mixture to 100 degrees F below peak EGT.

Best Economy Setting: from the Full Rich setting, lean mixture to peak EGT (first cylinder to peak in a 6 probe system), then lean mixture to 100 degrees F below peak EGT.

An interesting side note: the one place the engine was NEVER operated was at the Stoichiometric mixture of 14.7:1 as it is neither the Best Power point nor the Best Economy point.
A36 = R1150 Sounds right to me.

Good deal, you had the full 6cyl EGT system. Did you have the matched injector set as well?

That's the thing about the 14.7 stoichiometric mixture, it isn't optimum. Electronic Fuel Injected and catalyst-equipped motors aren't operated at 14.7 either. Instead the mixture is cycled above and below stoichiometry. Which alternately creates an oxygen-rich, followed by an oxygen-lean, exhaust. The alternating oxygen-rich to oxygen-lean exhaust is necessary to operate the catalyst.


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Old 12-21-2011, 07:25 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
...

That's the thing about the 14.7 stoichiometric mixture, it isn't optimum. Electronic Fuel Injected and catalyst-equipped motors aren't operated at 14.7 either. Instead the mixture is cycled above and below stoichiometry. Which alternately creates an oxygen-rich, followed by an oxygen-lean, exhaust. The alternating oxygen-rich to oxygen-lean exhaust is necessary to operate the catalyst.

Yes, agreed it switches between something above the set point and something below it. When I use the term setting closed loop AFR to 14.2, I mean that's the center of a range, the average AFR. In the case of 14.2, I'm running 13.7 to 14.7 at the moment but am still conducting tests.

Today I kept boosting AFR to see when the idle stumbled. Also noted that after a couple days of running 14.2 the bike is idling faster. Like it's cleaner. (?)

Ciao
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:59 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post

Yes, agreed it switches between something above the set point and something below it. When I use the term setting closed loop AFR to 14.2, I mean that's the center of a range, the average AFR. In the case of 14.2, I'm running 13.7 to 14.7 at the moment but am still conducting tests.
The 14.7 ratio isn't a set point, it's a coincidental average of the Exhaust Oxygen swings. I know, it sounds like I repeated what you just said, but I didn't. The thing is, the ECU and the catalyst require the high and low cycling exhaust oxygen levels, not the average value. The oxygen-rich and oxygen-lean swings are for the catalyst to 'breathe' so to speak. The catalyst needs the high and low oxygen swings, not the average value.

The modified O2 sensor signal from your LC-1 causes the ECU to alter the exhaust oxygen swings, which affects the chemical processes going on inside the catalyst. With the modified O2 sensor signal, the ECU feeds the catalyst more fuel, along with enough oxygen to complete the 'chemical combustion' (aka: oxidation) process going on inside the catalyst. This is dangerous.

When the catalyst is provided a sufficient quantity of oxygen and fuel ingredients, the oxidation process in the catalyst becomes hot enough to turn the stainless steel exhaust components into solder. There is a way around this.


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Poolside screwed with this post 12-22-2011 at 07:01 AM
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Old 12-22-2011, 04:44 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
...
When the catalyst is provided a sufficient quantity of oxygen and fuel ingredients, the oxidation process in the catalyst becomes hot enough to turn the stainless steel exhaust components into solder. There is a way around this. ...


Thanks for the scare! ;)

In the ranges I'm running, there has been a lot of data taken by others and it's not at all a concern to me. During warm up, my motorcycle runs in the 12s and low 13s. (Others have even disconnected the O2 entirely.) As I side note, I've been monitoring converter temperature and it hasn't risen or dropped noticeably. Interestingly, the temperature going into the Cat is much lower as the mixture is richened.

A misfiring cylinder with raw fuel entering the converter could do a lot of damage, like you mention, especially if there is an air leak to provide the amounts of oxygen needed.

Lastly on the issue of risk, the performance gains alone make a small risk (if it even exists) worthwhile. Flying is a risk, motorcycle riding is a risk, my age is a risk. I think I'll just find the best points (the high low limits of Lambda) and enjoy the smooth performance and riding when the spring comes to the Northeast. I should have things worked out by then!

Happy Holidays to All,
Roger
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Old 12-22-2011, 06:57 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post

In the ranges I'm running, there has been a lot of data taken by others and it's not at all a concern to me. During warm up, my motorcycle runs in the 12s and low 13s. (Warm up isn't the same operational mode as when the ECU is actively controlling exhaust oxygen.)

Others have even disconnected the O2 entirely. (The ECU is capable of a passable imitation of exhaust oxygen control, without an O2 sensor input. The ECU must be able to do that in case the O2 sensor fails.)

Interestingly, the temperature going into the Cat is much lower as the mixture is richened. (The input constituents are relevant, not the input temperature.)

A misfiring cylinder with raw fuel entering the converter could do a lot of damage, like you mention, especially if there is an air leak to provide the amounts of oxygen needed. (Misfire doesn't need an air leak, it supplies its own air.)

Lastly on the issue of risk, the performance gains alone make a small risk (if it even exists) worthwhile. Flying is a risk, motorcycle riding is a risk, my age is a risk. I think I'll just find the best points (the high low limits of Lambda) and enjoy the smooth performance and riding when the spring comes to the Northeast. I should have things worked out by then! (Good luck, traveler!)

Happy Holidays to All,
Roger
I'm not talking about risk per se, more I'm talking about understanding the physical processes, and how and why the electronics control those processes.

Happy Holidays to you as well!


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Old 12-26-2011, 08:34 AM   #36
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For those interested in the most arcane aspects of this project, might like to try it or who might offer some insight:

--Both the heater and the sensor are isolated from the case (meaning they are not grounded to the exhaust) in this four wire sensor.

--The wire called signal ground seems to have a 100 ohm source impedance (more to be confirmed), and the open circuit voltage is 140 mV. Since the sensor is isolated from the case, this strongly suggests that the entire sensor signal is offset by 140 mV. I have read that the reason for this offset is to allow shorted and open leads to be detected by the ECU--makes sense. Right now I may have the +Signal going negative relative to the -Signal.

--I have also read that the ECU builds closed loop adaption tables so I should be doing a full reset of the ECU each time I change an LC-1 parameter.

--This signal + side seems, from research, to be routed to a dual comparator circuit that creates a +/- 25mV hysteresis window.

Although things are working really well, I am not convinced I am getting a perfect rich/lean toggle yet so I will probably go and get an oscilloscope so that I can look into all this with a bit more certainty.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:06 AM   #37
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More measurements. It turns out that the sensor does float on a signal 140 mV above ground. Any O2 sims like mine have to add this to the lc-1 or other o2 computer. Although I'm still fine tuning, the bike is running strongly at 14.2:1 (13.7 to 14.7) Closed Loop. Will continue to report the clean-up work. The challenge is getting two sensitive computers, motronic and lc-1 to each love the new environment and for the motronic to be blind to it. I expect to refine:

--Wiring length
--Component positions
--Motronic heater emulation
--Electrical noise
--Simulated o2 rise time.

In spite of these planned improvements the bike continues to be smooth and powerful through all gears over a much wider RPM range.
Roger

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Old 01-03-2012, 08:55 AM   #38
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Project Update

In the photos below are the settings for the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 Wideband O2 Sensor that I used on my R1150RT to drive the stock, narrowband O2 sensor inputs to the Motronic. To summarize the project:

--I wanted to smooth out the performance of my motorcycle at low RPMs and remove all sense of hesitation in the 2000 to 4000 RPM band, even though the bike had already been fully tuned and balanced and didn't seem to have any surging.

--My test runs with the GS-911 showed that the R1150 spends almost half its time Closed Loop, meaning using the O2 sensor and toggling the Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) just above and just below 14.7:1. This is a leaner mixture than the so-called Best Power mixture for most engines, and I felt it likely the cause of a "holding back" or lean-ness that I felt in the 2000 to 4000 range.

--I wanted to allow the Motronic to operate the bike as it was designed to do, including Closed Loop with an O2 sensor and CAT.

--I replaced the stock O2 sensor which only allows Closed Loop AFR of 14.7:1 (gasoline) with a Wideband sensor who's AFR could be programmed to something between 13.0:1 and 15.0:1 so that I could find an AFR near 14.7:1 at which the bike ran its best. The product I chose is the Innovate Motorsports LC-1.

At this point using a target AFR of 14.2:1 (actually Lambda = 0.97), the project seems successful. Now the bike seems smooth and powerful from 1,500 RPM to 6,000 RPM--no surge, no hesitation, no stumbling, no "holding back". I can easily drive local roads in 5th gear and now regularly run RPMs around town between 2,500 and 3,500.

The installation is complete and stable but the LC-1 is not an easy Plug 'n Play solution. You have to connect it to power and ground, and have to connect it to the narrowband input wires of the stock O2 sensor. I did it quickly and left 5' of cable attached to the LC-1. I will cut that back, reroute the wires and check noise levels with an oscilloscope to determine the best wire routing. I will also rethink where the LC-1 (weatherproof) gets located.

Below are some screenshots of the LC-1 software and also one from the GS-911 showing its reports of how the Motronic sees the voltage toggling. It looks pretty good.

Thanks to everyone for the comments and support.
Happy Riding in the New Year,
RB

Plots and Comments:

The is the plot of the GS-911 toggling O2 around the setting of Lambda=0.97 or AFR 14.2:1. It goes solidly and regularly above and below the Motronic switching levels and produced a steady stream of cross-counts.


This is the LC-1 first setup page. I left Stoichiometric at 14.7 (rather than adjust to 14.13 of E10 fuel) since it's easier to think in those terms. It only affects the display of operation, not the settings.


Here are the voltage and Lambda settings that created the best O2 toggling waveform. They take into account a 140mV low side offset that I discovered in the Motronic, and produce a sharp change from Lambda=0.965 to 0.975.


I selected updating 12 times per second as a way to keep the Motronic from over-responding to the very sensitive LC-1.



Here are some usual plots with stock O2 sensors according to the GS-911 manufacturer. You can see that the usual plots are a bit jagged. This is because the GS-911 doesn't produce realtime data points, just every 200mS or so. If you go their site they also show some others, including bad plots.: http://www.hexcode.co.za/techinfo/lambda




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Old 01-03-2012, 09:13 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Below are some screenshots of the LC-1 software and also one from the GS-911 showing its reports of how the Motronic sees the voltage toggling. It looks pretty good.

What are the units of Time on that plot of lambda sensor voltage? The data seem severely under-sampled.
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:38 AM   #40
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What are the units of Time on that plot of lambda sensor voltage? The data seem severely under-sampled.
Hi Andrew,

You've written like someone familiar with digital signal processing. The manufacturer of the GS-911 doesn't state the time interval, just says it's faster than logging to a file. I'm estimating 200-300 mS. There is also no indication that the sampling is at a steady frequency--so no assurance of coherence. If you look earlier in the thread, I think I've plotted a sequential distribution of voltages reported. They are fairly linearly distributed with no sampling "holes". I'm going to round up an oscilloscope sometime this winter and get some additional info.

Bottom line is that the swings and crossings are good enough to satisfy the Motronic and they are very similar to how the stock sensor looks.

Here are what they say are usual plots: http://www.hexcode.co.za/techinfo/lambda




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Old 01-03-2012, 05:02 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post

The manufacturer of the GS-911 doesn't state the time interval, just says it's faster than logging to a file. I'm estimating 200-300 mS. There is also no indication that the sampling is at a steady frequency--so no assurance of coherence.
If I remember, the first column in the output .csv file from the GS-911 is a time stamp, and I think it's a system time stamp generated at the PC not from the GS-911. The number is a large integer and I don't remember the minimum resolution. To display it you'll need to convert the integer to a floating point. Then take the first number in the column and use it as an offset value. Subtract the offset value from all the other time values in the column so that the first row of collected data appears to start at zero.

Also, in the GS-911 user interface there's a config page for logging. On that settings page there are check boxes to select only the data channels you want to collect, and turn off all the others. That may speed up the process.


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Old 01-03-2012, 08:50 PM   #42
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If I remember, the first column in the output .csv file from the GS-911 is a time stamp, and I think it's a system time stamp generated at the PC not from the GS-911. The number is a large integer and I don't remember the minimum resolution ...
Thanks. Turns out the GS-911 has a special mode for logging the O2 plot. It's not an oscilloscope but still efective. Enough samples to monitor the operation, the results quite good.

The 911 is a very handy tool for monitoring the electronics, and preety easy to learn.

Now before the snow flies here its time to ride and enjoy the new performance and then on to a spline lube ...
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:41 PM   #43
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Open Loop AFR Results

Today I got a chance to pull the fairings, lift the tank and disconnect the O2 Sensor input to the Motronic. My goal was to see what the Open Loop Air Fuel Ratios (AFR) for the Motronic 2.4 looked like.

As a reminder, I have a Wideband LC-1 installed in place of the normal Narrowband O2 sensor. Usually it is set to 14.2:1, so when the motorcycle goes closed loop, I can't tell what the Motronic would do on its own, with the O2 Sensor disconnected.

I also pulled the Pink CAT Code Plug and looked at those results as well.

Procedure:
1) Disconnect Motronic O2 Sensor
2) Disconnect BoosterPlug
3) Reset Motronic by pulling Fuse 5, etc.

Results:
From Cold Engine (40F) to Warm Engine (140F-ish): AFR Range 13:1 to 14.7:1
Warm Engine Cruise (3rd, 4th, 5th gears; 3000 to 5000 RPM): AFR Range 14.5:1 to 15.2:1

Comments: There was no sign of a rich Limp Home Mode. Without O2 Sensor connected, mixtures got leaner than 14.7:1.

Next Test:
1)Pulled Pink CAT Code Plug
2)No BoosterPlug
3)O2 Sensor Disconnected
4)Motronic Reset

Results:
Warm Engine Cruise (3rd, 4th, 5th gears; 3000 to 5000 RPM): AFR Range 14.7:1 to 15.5:1.

Comments: Pulling the Pink CAT Code plug definitely created leaner mixtures than with it in, by an amount I would guess was about 0.4 AFR leaner. I would not ride without Pink CAT Code plug installed.

Summary:
It looks to me like the stock fuel tables in the cruise range for the Motronic MA 2.4 are centered around 14.7:1 and get leaner somewhere between 2,500 and 4,000 RPM depending on TPS. I often saw AFR readings in the low 15s.

It may be that without the O2 sensor installed, and with the E10 Premium fuel I'm running, the Motronic stock fuel tables result in leaner than 14.7:1.

As you can guess, I will be reconnecting the LC-1, reprogramming my Closed Loop O2 to 14:2:1 and reconnecting the BoosterPlug for Open Loop enrichment.

PS: I broke a tab on one of the fairings in my rush to open the bike. Any suggestions for how to glue to reattach a piece to the fairing (in the cylinder head area)?
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Old 01-31-2012, 08:14 PM   #44
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Ran the same Open Loop tests with the BoosterPlug installed, as expected, about a 6% richer mixture across the board.

Procedure:
1) Disconnect Motronic O2 Sensor
2) Connect BoosterPlug
3) Reset Motronic by pulling Fuse 5, etc.

Results:
Warm Engine Cruise (3rd, 4th, 5th gears; 3000 to 5000 RPM): AFR Range 13.5:1 to 14.5:1

Open Loop, with the BoosterPlug installed, the motorcycle seemed to run strong in all gears and modes (accel, cruise, decel), much better behaved than with stock Narrowband O2.
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:21 PM   #45
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I'm new to this, so forgive my naive questions. As far as I can tell, the O2 sensor returns a voltage-coded signal that indicates the oxygen level in the exhaust and the ECU then uses this return voltage among other parameters to determine fuel injection timing and duration? With your programmable sensor, you are changing the transfer function between O2 and voltage such that the ECU is effectively fooled into thinking there is less/more (I'm not sure which) oxygen in the exhaust and adding more fuel than before?

If you were to take the O2 vs voltage plot of the old and new oxygen sensors and plotted them, would the shape of the lines be the same with a constant offset across the O2 range? (i.e. have you, e.g., lowered the voltage by .1 or whatever V for every O2 level?) Or is it more complicated than that?

If it's just a simple voltage change, it should be really really easy to splice a simple circuit between the O2 sensor and ECU that modifies the output of the stock sensor to match what you've programmed. Obviously, your setup allows a lot more tunability, but for those that want those benefits of a smoother bike yet need something simple, a little plugin circuit might do.

Many bikes have multi-map ECUs these days, especially sport bikes. Rather than have race/street/rain settings that aren't really that useful, I'm surprised they haven't set them up to be low octane/high octane/gas with ethanol in it maps instead. If everything is expecting 100% gasoline and you feed it 90% gasoline/10% ethanol, of course the fueling is going to go wonky.
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