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Old 01-16-2012, 06:44 PM   #61
Drif10
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Originally Posted by Smithy View Post
I think a lot of people were getting tired of it for about a 36-hour cycle. Light moderation is needed in a group this size, and "Racing" isn't "JoMomma". I see no need to let disrespect get the better of us, especially when the host of this great website is giving us the space for free - and he's obviously set the tone here as "civil". I choose to respect that, and welcome any efforts to keep it respected. I see no reason if someone wants to start a bashing thread in the basement, why they can't. Just keep it out of here, is all I'm suggesting.
Just as soon as you can define that line in the sand, let us know. Is it like the porn definition: I know it when I see it? Your definition will differ from mine, this is human. Whose opinion is 'righter'? It's a tough one, when you choose to censor.

I don't see where there was a problem worthy of much discussion, or more so, to warrant another set of rules. Too much of that goes on already, imo. We all have different ideas about things, to make them conform to someone's definition ain't exactly what this place was about. But perhaps, it is keeping with the current norms as demonstrated in Adv now.


The content is here, and continues to amaze and improve. Let's focus on that, and not on censoring our neighbors thoughts and words.
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:50 PM   #62
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Hey all, hey Nate. I'm sorry if this is obvious but I'm about to get paid and want to donate to Rally radio but can't figure out a PP addy or where to send a check.
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Old 01-16-2012, 07:44 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Drif10 View Post
Just as soon as you can define that line in the sand, let us know. Is it like the porn definition: I know it when I see it? Your definition will differ from mine, this is human. Whose opinion is 'righter'? It's a tough one, when you choose to censor.

I don't see where there was a problem worthy of much discussion, or more so, to warrant another set of rules. Too much of that goes on already, imo. We all have different ideas about things, to make them conform to someone's definition ain't exactly what this place was about. But perhaps, it is keeping with the current norms as demonstrated in Adv now.


The content is here, and continues to amaze and improve. Let's focus on that, and not on censoring our neighbors thoughts and words.

Nate threw down a warning at one point, and maybe a dozen posts got pruned. It was enough, and reserved for the most egregious. I guess I'm just taking a long time to say, "it was about right, don't be afraid to prune if it comes down to it."

Glad I'm not in charge of this herd of cats.
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Old 01-16-2012, 08:01 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Drif10 View Post
Just as soon as you can define that line in the sand, let us know. Is it like the porn definition: I know it when I see it? Your definition will differ from mine, this is human. Whose opinion is 'righter'? It's a tough one, when you choose to censor.

I don't see where there was a problem worthy of much discussion, or more so, to warrant another set of rules. Too much of that goes on already, imo. We all have different ideas about things, to make them conform to someone's definition ain't exactly what this place was about. But perhaps, it is keeping with the current norms as demonstrated in Adv now.


The content is here, and continues to amaze and improve. Let's focus on that, and not on censoring our neighbors thoughts and words.
Excellent thoughts Drif and Smithy.

To me, it seems obvious (only my opinion). Discourse and dialogue about possible preferential treatment of French riders by a French organization, entertaining conspiracy theories, interposing that with real evidence from the public record, etc., is all fair game.

Internet cowboy posts trashing a particular culture/race/country/etc., serve no purpose and are of significantly negative value.

I don't need, or care, to hear what some dude thinks about French people. I AM, on the other hand, VERY interested to hear what any dude thinks about how the organization might be unfair, or where corruption might be creeping in, but this is about the ORGANIZATION, not the race/culture/language of the people that run it.

There is horrifying corruption and abuse in all countries, languages, and classes. It serves no purpose to specifically discriminate based on a single situation, racing or otherwise.

Let's focus on the content, as Drif said, and turn the focus away from xenophobic bullshit as much as possible. I don't think it's asking to much to expect this community to rise above that level.

dc
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Old 01-16-2012, 08:23 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Smithy View Post
Nate threw down a warning at one point, and maybe a dozen posts got pruned. It was enough, and reserved for the most egregious. I guess I'm just taking a long time to say, "it was about right, don't be afraid to prune if it comes down to it."

Glad I'm not in charge of this herd of cats.
I agree.

Even though I was an offender.

A slap to the back of the head and got things back on track.
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Old 01-16-2012, 10:33 PM   #66
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Hi, Everyone. I've spent most of the day today trying to claw my way back to baseline on all the things that have languished in the "real world" over the fortnight.

Just reading up quickly here, fantastic discussion. Please keep it coming.



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Old 01-17-2012, 04:13 AM   #67
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As a n00b when the Rally started.... (but boy do I feel like a veteran now ) the Dakar scoring 101 thread was great but a suggestion for next year, this should have a section on the difference between....

ASO - The Organisation
FIM (and FIA) - The World Governing Bodies
Eurosport - The TV Broadcaster

At times the three were completely confused by some inmates, especially when it came to things like Robby's disqualification, it seemed that most people were convinced this had been done by ASO when it was of course the FIA Jury.

Equally the discussion on "Mudgate" although ASO were obviously instrumental in the "solution" to the timing issue, the final decision rest with the FIM Jury (does anyone know if their is a combined FIM/FIA Jury or two separate ones?)

And then we had numerous comments on the TV coverage that invariably started "why don't ASO cover this........" No it's Eurosport that decide where the cameras are and what ends up on the cutting room floor. Again ASO will have a level of influence but no organiser has total control of the media (even if ASO try very hard to do so). And yes Eurosport are a French based broadcaster but I will make no further comment on that.

OK I'm sure this will still go on and of course not everyone will read it but hopefully we can try and sort out the confusion
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Old 01-17-2012, 04:25 AM   #68
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I agree.

Even though I was an offender.

A slap to the back of the head and got things back on track.
That speaks volumes. Good on ya Iron Horse
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Old 01-17-2012, 04:31 AM   #69
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And then we had numerous comments on the TV coverage that invariably started "why don't ASO cover this........" No it's Eurosport that decide where the cameras are and what ends up on the cutting room floor. Again ASO will have a level of influence but no organiser has total control of the media (even if ASO try very hard to do so). And yes Eurosport are a French based broadcaster but I will make no further comment on that.

OK I'm sure this will still go on and of course not everyone will read it but hopefully we can try and sort out the confusion
Good points, worthy of inclusion in the Cliff Notes, just not sure about the last one...

It's always been my understanding that the ASO crews are the only ones to actually film everything (using their own helicopters & ground crews), and then that footage gets released to TVE / NBC / Eurosport / France24 etc for editing & narration (Carlton etc)... the ASO get the first edit of course...

The only thing a broadcasting partner (TVE, ES, F24) can add is live on the ground reporting in the bivvy (Adelaide and the German guy from last year on Eurosport for example), but not much footage of the actual race, if any
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Old 01-17-2012, 04:45 AM   #70
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It's always been my understanding that the ASO crews are the only ones to actually film everything (using their own helicopters & ground crews), and then that footage gets released to TVE / NBC / Eurosport / France24 etc for editing & narration (Carlton etc)... the ASO get the first edit of course...

The only thing a broadcasting partner (TVE, ES, F24) can add is live on the ground reporting in the bivvy (Adelaide and the German guy from last year on Eurosport for example), but not much footage of the actual race, if any

Eurosport nowadays only has Adelaide on the ground, doing a couple of finisher interviews. This is paid for by VW and we have to watch the "extra" footage of her fooling around in the desert, showing off Ze Amarok kaar. Until last year, VW paid a lot more, resulting in more bivouac footage and more Ze Amarok kaar, ze Touareg kaar, Ze Kris Nissen footage.

The show is pre-produced by the ASO media crew, including basic voice-over and interview translation and is then sent out to ES, SBS, NBC etc., where the local talents then do their own voice over.


Concerning the penalties and disqualifications, I'm not 100% sure, but as the Dakar is NOT a FIM/FIA rally, but is running under ASO rules + FIA/FIM rules, the first level of jurisdiction is in fact a commission of ASO sporting/tech officials, with the courts of appeal being the french motorsports association and then the FIM.
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Old 01-17-2012, 04:54 AM   #71
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Eurosport nowadays only has Adelaide on the ground, doing a couple of finisher interviews. This is paid for by VW and we have to watch the "extra" footage of her fooling around in the desert, showing off Ze Amarok kaar. Until last year, VW paid a lot more, resulting in more bivouac footage and more Ze Amarok kaar, ze Touareg kaar, Ze Kris Nissen footage.

The show is pre-produced by the ASO media crew, including basic voice-over and interview translation and is then sent out to ES, SBS, NBC etc., where the local talents then do their own voice over.


Concerning the penalties and disqualifications, I'm not 100% sure, but as the Dakar is NOT a FIM/FIA rally, but is running under ASO rules + FIA/FIM rules, the first level of jurisdiction is in fact a commission of ASO sporting/tech officials, with the courts of appeal being the french motorsports association and then the FIM.
Oui on both counts
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Old 01-17-2012, 05:40 AM   #72
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... But my favorite, as usual, is the Rally Raidio call in's. I think, if we could get a few more members that are in the race or in the Bivouac to call in, that would make it even better. Maybe a commitment from the F5 crew to fund Sat phones for the guys willing to call in regularly.
I'll be keen to do regular Rally Radio updates next year. Those were absolutely magic from Ned and really caught the imagination of the ADVRider supporters. I've done them before from the Australasian Safari bivouac with SafariBerg. Of course Ned has set a very tough act to follow in many more ways than one, but I'd do my best - always in more ways than one! (This does of course rely on the ASO accepting my entry when the time comes)
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Old 01-17-2012, 06:23 AM   #73
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Eurosport nowadays only has Adelaide on the ground, doing a couple of finisher interviews.
Bit of a longshot conspiracy idea here maybe, and let's not tell anyone ok, but.. maybe some of you young handsome & influential rally-aficionados, preferably with some romantic skills in french, should let your charming skills loose for subtle year-long persuasive methods of influencing the beforementioned Adelaide Saint Amore Cul Desac Guyuy sur Malles Madame, with the purpose of getting a little more privateer moto rider footage here and there for Dakar 2013.

Anyone who recognises himself in that, go for it (her)!
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Old 01-17-2012, 06:25 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Flood View Post

Eurosport nowadays only has Adelaide on the ground, doing a couple of finisher interviews. This is paid for by VW and we have to watch the "extra" footage of her fooling around in the desert, showing off Ze Amarok kaar. Until last year, VW paid a lot more, resulting in more bivouac footage and more Ze Amarok kaar, ze Touareg kaar, Ze Kris Nissen footage.

The show is pre-produced by the ASO media crew, including basic voice-over and interview translation and is then sent out to ES, SBS, NBC etc., where the local talents then do their own voice over.


Concerning the penalties and disqualifications, I'm not 100% sure, but as the Dakar is NOT a FIM/FIA rally, but is running under ASO rules + FIA/FIM rules, the first level of jurisdiction is in fact a commission of ASO sporting/tech officials, with the courts of appeal being the french motorsports association and then the FIM.
Thanks for the clarification.

I was under the impression, gained some years ago from my experience as a UCI Commissaire in cyling that the "ASO Film team" were in fact from Eurosport under contract and therefore different to Eurosport the broadcaster (Adelaide etc).


Having done some searching I realise this not the case and indeed the ASO website says


Quote:
A.S.O. produces or co-produces 700 hours of programmes, enabling 8,000 hours of sport to be broadcast every year to 5 billion viewers around the world. A.S.O. teams are highly experienced in filming, editing and delivering programmes. They also distribute these programmes to around 200 channels worldwide.

Obviously on most major sport events it will be the case that they "buy in" the TV production although I suppose being a such a huge, regular annual event it makes sense for ASO to have an in house capability, especially as they also have the Tour de France, Paris-Roubaix, Liège-Bastogne-Liège, Flèche Wallonne and Paris-Tours, Paris-Nice, Critérium du Dauphiné, Vuelta a España, etc etc


My own expeience includes working on the 2002 Commonwealth Games in Manchester, the Official Games broadcaster was the BBC but was not the same as the BBC covereing the event for UK consumption. The arguments between the two sides of the same company over what should be covered was amusing at times, with BBC World concentrating on the top athletes only but BBC UK wanting more coverage of UK athletes in all positions.

Again as a cycling official, i have a "professional" interest in the rules aspect and my observations were based in part on the fact that in the TV coverage of Robbygate the chairman of the Jury was interviewed and captioned as being from the FIA (and I noted Andorran). That was odd as in cycling we are never identified by our nationality, I still recall from my initial training being told "a Commissaire has no nationality during an event".
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Old 01-17-2012, 06:36 AM   #75
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Bit of a longshot conspiracy idea here maybe, and let's not tell anyone ok, but.. maybe some of you young handsome & influential rally-aficionados, preferably with some romantic skills in french, should let your charming skills loose for subtle year-long persuasive methods of influencing the beforementioned Adelaide Saint Amore Cul Desac Guyuy sur Malles Madame, with the purpose of getting a little more privateer moto rider footage here and there for Dakar 2013.

Anyone who recognises himself in that, go for it (her)!



I'm hoping to chat with Ben Constanduros in the next week or so. I think understanding how what we see is produced and delivered is fascinating. And may give some insight as to what is/is not possible through the traditional channels.
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Yes, I have a Dakar problem -- that there are 50 weeks of the year without Dakar!

They don't expect you to finish. That's why it's the Dakar. -- PPiA


Get your sweet Pyndon DakARTwork here

Pyndon '13
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