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Old 01-23-2012, 10:30 PM   #1201
SafariBerg
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Dakar 2013

Lima start - Peru 4 stages - Bolivia 1 stage - Argentina 3 stages - Chile 5 stages finish Valparaiso (not Santiago)

shipping to Lima - hmmm yes allow more lead time if not with ASO out of Le Harve
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Old 01-23-2012, 10:57 PM   #1202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PackMule View Post
What do you make of the shipping with a Lima start?

I think that's brilliant from where I am sitting.

Anyone want me to keep their bike for them?

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Originally Posted by SafariBerg View Post
Dakar 2013

Lima start - Peru 4 stages - Bolivia 1 stage - Argentina 3 stages - Chile 5 stages finish Valparaiso (not Santiago)

shipping to Lima - hmmm yes allow more lead time if not with ASO out of Le Harve
Hey Garry! It was great meeting you in the Nasca bivouac, albeit briefly. I'm sorry we never got to link up after the rally. A great bunch of blokes you put together for this year's berg team, and well done for the finish

Valparaiso...that's even better!
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:10 AM   #1203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PackMule View Post
What model GPS do you use? Schatt makes gps repeaters compatible with several models. You could set "proximity alarms" (accessible in some of the marine type GPS's, I think my old GPS176 has it) for the WP's. I don't think it would guide you in, per se, but I think once they activate it shows you distance to the mark.

I know you want to do it "right", but if that doesn't turn out to be feasible, you could get much of the effect as mentioned above.
I was going to stop over in Frankfurt and meet Schattat but my flight schedule didn't end up allowing it, sigh
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:47 AM   #1204
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Originally Posted by Bluebull2007 View Post
A lil birdie told me that 2013 Dakar will start in Lima and will include one stage in Bolivia. Everyone knows it is going to end in Santiago. I think its going to be a big old loop like this>



Its about 10,000km long. It will be longer than Dakar 2012.

Dream with me:

Stage one: A 50km liaison to a very technical stage of dunes and mountain ridges. My back yard. Should bYe about 150km of special and then a shortish liaison to Pisco.

Stage 2: The second last stage of this years Dakar reversed but including much more severe dune crossings and will likely see a lot of people fall out. Im guessing the biv will be in Ica.

Stage 3 A 300km liaison past Nasca to another gruelling dune special including the bits that were skipped this year and a couple of dune climbs that will stop a whole bunch more. I reckon this will be the most difficult stage of next year's Dakar.

They missed this dune this year because of the dangerous drop into the river, but doing it the other way (up) will be safer because a road section will guide them to the bottom of the dune. From there it will be hellish, I measured it to be 500m high. A 500km liaison through to Arequipa should finish off the stragglers.

Stage 4: Another LOOOOONG Liaison through to Moquegua in Peru where another special following riverbeds, dunes and river crossings to finish in Tacna on the border just to the north of Chile.


Stage 5: A classic Arica special but not a very long one. There will nevertheless be a long liaison through to Uyuni in Bolivia. The biggest salt pan on earth, the Salar de Uyuni will be crossed. It will be spectacular. Uyuni is only 20km from the mine where I work, the riding there is fantastic.

Stage 6: A brutal stage at 3,900m altitude will cut east accross small dune fields, scrubby bush and rocky washes. The biv will likely be in Tarija or some remote part of southern Bolivia.

Stage 7: Entering into northern Argentina's Juyjuy province, we have another difficult stage of soft fiambala-type dunes and fesh-fesh plains. This will be a 600km special stage. Carnage for the privateers.

Stage 8: Rest day, probably in the dusty town of San Antonio de Cobres. There wont be much rest.

Stage 9: The route continues south special will visit some dunes that were last seen I think in 2009. That year, they had rain so there were some spectacular photos, but I think the sand is very soft on any other day.

Stage 10: Dakar SA would not be Dakar if there was not a Fiambala stage. It will be tough but not as many stragglers as usual because most of them will have been culled off already.

Stage 11: Long liaison over into Chile before the route cuts north to Antofagasta. This may be a repeat of the stage 4 2010 Dakar.

Stage 12: The stage defined by the Iquique drop. Robbie Gordon's delight.

Stage 13: A long liaison followed by a another long special to end in Copiapo. This will be the longest day in total kilometers.

Stage 14: A nice liaison with a easy loop special outside Santiago somewhere.


Whaddayas reckon?

Tougher than this years route I would say.
Will you be chasing again?
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:40 AM   #1205
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Question 2013 Dakar AUTO categories... who can run what...?

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Originally Posted by wrk2surf View Post
Ok... time for 2013 rumors and rules...
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrk2surf View Post
Troy.. please ( I know you already know) fill us in (the short version) on the new rules on cars.. toyota hi lux's are in.. how bout a Tundra V8? Is it going to be a "stock" production only car class or what?


As far as I can figure out, here is a quick laymans terms explanation of what the general ground rules for the different FIA categories in the AUTO class for Dakar 2013 (might) be.

At this point, I will write in four quick "if &/or but" clauses; relating to possible or eventual "alterations" due to the following conditions;

1. The FIA CCR tech regs for T1 (Modified Cross Country vehicles - MINI X-Raid, Imperial Team Toyota Hilux etc.), T2 (Series Production - Toyota Landcruiser/Prado, Nissan Patrol/Pathfinder etc.) and T3 (Improved Cross Country vehicles - Euro 2WD buggies and 4x4 "specials" etc.) These reg's for 2012/13 are now set... and it is these that ASO use for the FIA classes at Dakar...

but;

2. ASO have their own "homegrown" categories: OPEN 1 (Modified SCORE legal Off Road vehicles - like Gordon/Hummer, Skilton/Special etc) and OPEN 2 (Production SCORE legal - STOCK fullsize pick-up and SUV vehicles), these classes are - Dakar specific - obviously intended to facilitate competitors from the USA and provide them with opportunity to compete with existing US spec vehicles without having to build specifically to the FIA regs.

so;

3. Some of the requirements for the OPEN 1 category, may well be affected by what the outcome is of the FFSA/FIA tech jury hearing about RG's Hummer/air intake/tyre inflation drama. In either case I would expect that the "parameters" for the OPEN 1 category will recieve some attention in any case... for att present it is rather apparent on pure race speed in off piste terrain; that the Gordon team cars are at a considered advantage speedwise... so I would expect some "massaging" of the rules as they stand to create "parity" on that front.

which in other words means;

4. We (the general public) won't know definately until end april/start may perhaps, untill ASO release the official sporting regulations for the 2013 DAKAR? The teams concerned will probably hammer this out with ASO/FIA in march sometime over the tech committee debate table.

As the FIA AUTO tech reg's stand at the moment (my understanding in simplest terms)

T1 (Modified) The "factory team" class:

for 2013 on all engines must be PRODUCTION units from a homologated vehicle of same manufacturer. Previously it was the case that some of the factory team powerplants were unique "combinations" of the manufacturers OEM powerplants, though often with specially cast blocks or cylinders, and/or "mix and match" motors - factory parts bin specials, not a specification available in any particular vehicle offered for sale to the general public... but still "based" on production componentry.

There is even a clause now relating specifically to the metallurgy of the cylinder and block components (probably one of the big teams had a special material they had come up with?)

Supercharging of petrol engines in T1 are no longer permitted from 2013 (turbocharging in T1 S.P. has been prohibited since 2004).

Transmission; teams in T1 may use either;

1. manual sequential gearbox (no electronics) up to max 6 speed and reverse (no high/low range transfer).

2.Manual conventional H-pattern style gearbox is permitted. No restriction on number of gears, provided it is identical to series prod. original - typically this would mean a 5 speed gearbox with a high/low transfercase = 10 gears/ratio's. + 2 reverse (high/low).

3. Automatic transmission with torque converter also permitted.

Drivetrain/differential:

All types of active/variable differential in 4x4 T.1 are now prohibited. Mechanical or viscous coupling permitted, but not permitted to alter front/rear drive bias actively when driving. A mechanical lock/disengage mechanism is permitted.

As far as suspension/chassis is concerned, there are no major changes (they usually fiddle with minimum weight tables from time to time). Interestingly the is ONE new clause for T1 4WD vehicles, which specifically states a minimum front/rear wheel overhang specification of 660 mm (measured from axle center to the front/rear extremity of the bodywork/bumper).

What does all this mean for the big factory gun teams?

Well for the Imperial TOYOTA Hilux's of DeVilliers team - as I understand it - they can start in same spec' as they were for 2012... pretty much.

For the X-Raid MINI's, they will (presumeably) have to find a new powerplant from within the BMW/Rover group catalogue, and don't be surprised if they appear with a new front/rear bumper on them for 2013 (I don't have a tape measure, It's just an eyeball estimate... but the X-Raid MINI's appear like the distance axle centre to the bumpers leading/trailing edge may be less than 660 mm?) Other than that, thery are good to go.

All of the ex-factory Pajero's, Lancers etc. even the ex-VW touregs (if they will sell them) are no longer elligible in the T1. category as I read it, BUT these vehicles could always be altered slightly (engine configuration etc.) and run in the T3 (Improved Cross Country) category by privateer entrants (no factory team entries in T3 permitted).

As I understand the X-3 BMW's (and the Chinese replica's from over the Great Wall) will be "good to go" under the 2013 rules...?

Anyone else (another factory team) thinking of joining the party, would have to pick up the 2012/2013 FIA rule book and start to come up with something crafty, pretty quickly.


T2: "Series Production" category. This is the FIA class for standard based vehicle... The rules for this class remain largely unchanged for 2013. Basically all of the vehicles standard original chassis/engine/drivetrain and suspended components MUST remain as standard/original... but nearly ALL components are permitted to be reinforced, strengthened in order to improve durability.
Toyoya and Nissan are the big players in this class.


T3: (Improved Cross Country vehicles): The FIA's "run what you brung" class for privateer AUTO's. 2WD buggies, ex-factory T1 and homebuilt/prototype/one off 4WD type vehicles... specifically NOT factory team efforts. Basically a "free" class, provided the vehicle meets the general persciptions (max wheelbase, track, weight and suspension travel - max 300mm) and has an FIA logbook... you're in. No changes of significance for 2013.


ASO "OPEN" category:

Subject to the FFSA/FIA tech inquiry on the Hummer AND the eventual bargaining table disscussions for 2013 with the ASO... I would expect to see the OPEN 1 (Modified SCORE/US vehicles) to be similar... but perhaps with some changes to minimum weight/wheel travel/horesepower equation... for as it stands, the Hummers will run away and hide from the production based engines and limited (250mm) wheel travel that the FIA T1 factory cars are required to run with.

The question remains to see if there are many US based off road teams that would consider doing DAKAR with various SCORE legal vehicles (remember that Class 1 and Trophy Trucks are specifically excluded from the DAKAR reg's). Some rumours that there are some of the SCORE teams interested in this. Just as a passing comment, I would say that many of the top SCORE teams Baja "pre-runners" would make competitive Dakar cars, with minimal modifications/adaptations.

Open 2 (Production SCORE/US vehicles - STOCK fullsize/midsize pick-ups and SUV's). I would expect no significant changes to this category, so the possibility for US teams to run entries like the Rod Hall Racing H3 Hummer (4x4), or the Jeep Cherokee that Mark McMillin drove, the Ford Raptor that Skilton's team ran last two years etc. is ready and waiting for those that want to challenge Dakar in a stock based entry.

So wrk2surf... I'm not sure if that's the "short" version you were after (but shorter than the FIA dossier in any case)... but in general that's what I would expect the game rules for 2013 dakar to look like in rough terms.

Regards a Toyota Tundra...? Sure, build one up to meet the SCORE Stock full size pick-up class rules, get a SCORE logbook and stamp and send off an entry to ASO for the OPEN 2 (production) class... why not?
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Old 01-24-2012, 04:35 AM   #1206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebull2007 View Post
A lil birdie told me that 2013 Dakar will start in Lima and will include one stage in Bolivia. Everyone knows it is going to end in Santiago. I think its going to be a big old loop like this>



Its about 10,000km long. It will be longer than Dakar 2012.

Dream with me:

Stage one: A 50km liaison to a very technical stage of dunes and mountain ridges. My back yard. Should be about 150km of special and then a shortish liaison to Pisco.

Stage 2: The second last stage of this years Dakar reversed but including much more severe dune crossings and will likely see a lot of people fall out. Im guessing the biv will be in Ica.

Stage 3 A 300km liaison past Nasca to another gruelling dune special including the bits that were skipped this year and a couple of dune climbs that will stop a whole bunch more. I reckon this will be the most difficult stage of next year's Dakar.

They missed this dune this year because of the dangerous drop into the river, but doing it the other way (up) will be safer because a road section will guide them to the bottom of the dune. From there it will be hellish, I measured it to be 500m high. A 500km liaison through to Arequipa should finish off the stragglers.

Stage 4: Another LOOOOONG Liaison through to Moquegua in Peru where another special following riverbeds, dunes and river crossings to finish in Tacna on the border just to the north of Chile.


Stage 5: A classic Arica special but not a very long one. There will nevertheless be a long liaison through to Uyuni in Bolivia. The biggest salt pan on earth, the Salar de Uyuni will be crossed. It will be spectacular. Uyuni is only 20km from the mine where I work, the riding there is fantastic.

Stage 6: A brutal stage at 3,900m altitude will cut east accross small dune fields, scrubby bush and rocky washes. The biv will likely be in Tarija or some remote part of southern Bolivia.

Stage 7: Entering into northern Argentina's Juyjuy province, we have another difficult stage of soft fiambala-type dunes and fesh-fesh plains. This will be a 600km special stage. Carnage for the privateers.

Stage 8: Rest day, probably in the dusty town of San Antonio de Cobres. There wont be much rest.

Stage 9: The route continues south special will visit some dunes that were last seen I think in 2009. That year, they had rain so there were some spectacular photos, but I think the sand is very soft on any other day.

Stage 10: Dakar SA would not be Dakar if there was not a Fiambala stage. It will be tough but not as many stragglers as usual because most of them will have been culled off already.

Stage 11: Long liaison over into Chile before the route cuts north to Antofagasta. This may be a repeat of the stage 4 2010 Dakar.

Stage 12: The stage defined by the Iquique drop. Robbie Gordon's delight.

Stage 13: A long liaison followed by a another long special to end in Copiapo. This will be the longest day in total kilometers.

Stage 14: A nice liaison with a easy loop special outside Santiago somewhere.


Whaddayas reckon?

I reckon you could be close, although personally I imagine they might go inland a bit more in Peru initially (obviously you know the terrain there), to give the event brand new stages from the off - much as they did this year in Argentina?

Then I imagine they will cross into Chile first, essentially doing the Arica - Iquique section in reverse (going up the big dune eh?), then head into Bolivia for a stage (or two) then?

As I understood it from the chatter in the Dakar 2012 thread, the suggestion (from ASO?) was that there would only be a liaison section in Argentina this year? - so it's feasible that after Bolivia, the rally heads south and crosses from Argentina back into Chile along the route they took last year (2011) towards Calama, then heads to the coast and south to Santiago from there - via Antofagasta etc, and quite possibly with a loop section in the dunes around Copiapo as they did in 2011 too?

Of course running any of the stages in reverse is a simple way to essentially create a new event from previously reccyed terrain, which is easy(ier) for the ASO to administer - but I'm sure we'll see at least one brand new stage in Peru (perhaps stuff they had already reccyed but for logistics had to miss this year?), plus a stage in Bolivia and one/two down towards Santiago to finish...

That's my 2 cents/pence...

Jxx
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:25 AM   #1207
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Well, we know the end. Peru is lobbying hard for the start to be in Lima. The Minister of Sport has already held several meetings with the ASO and will also stop over in Paris for more negotiations on the way back from Davos.

I'd expect that Lima is chosen for the start, but I also expect no less than 2 stages in Bolivia. It may look like Argentina may draw the short end of the stick for 2013, but if the ASO is not willing to approach Buenos Aires at all, I can't imagine Argentina investing too much time, money, or effort for the sparsely populated Western regions.

Peru was such a sensation, I'd say 5 stages there, then 2 in Bolivia 1 in Argentina, and the finishing up with 6 stages in Chile. I can't imagine they'd want to enter Chile twice just for the time lost at border crossings alone. I expect a Peru, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile loop.
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:45 AM   #1208
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After seeing the welcoming attitude of Peruvians and the amazing job that the city of Lima did for the finish of Dakar 2012, I am excited about the prospect of having the race start there next year!
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Old 01-24-2012, 09:32 AM   #1209
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I can't imagine they'd want to enter Chile twice just for the time lost at border crossings alone. I expect a Peru, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile loop.
Yes, I agree with you it would be a bit silly to enter Chile twice (although the customs post was handled very quickly and efficiently when I was there) - I still think they are likely to enter Chile from Argentina via the northern route/pass though (between Jujuy and Calama) as I can't imagine they would want to miss out the stages around Arica and Iquique? - I just want to see everyone going UP that monster dune!

Jx
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Old 01-24-2012, 09:37 AM   #1210
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I just want to see everyone going UP that monster dune!
Engine changes for all the bikes at the top after holding it on the stop in a fairly low gear all the way up?

Robby Gordon to launch over the crest so fast that he clears the entire continent and splashes down in the Atlantic?

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Old 01-24-2012, 10:56 AM   #1211
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..I just want to see what it's like for me and piglet to ride UP that monster dune!

Jx
Fikst



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Old 01-24-2012, 12:28 PM   #1212
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Fikst



Hee hee... I think Piglet will be in the support truck on that day... (or the Malle Moto box if I can't get the funds together!)

Jx
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:07 PM   #1213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uberthumper View Post
Engine changes for all the bikes at the top after holding it on the stop in a fairly low gear all the way up?

Robby Gordon to launch over the crest so fast that he clears the entire continent and splashes down in the Atlantic?



on another note

When it comes to horsepower and jumping dunes Americans wrote the book dude..







Thanks for the run down Troy!
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Old 01-24-2012, 06:49 PM   #1214
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Originally Posted by SafariBerg View Post
Dakar 2013

Lima start - Peru 4 stages - Bolivia 1 stage - Argentina 3 stages - Chile 5 stages finish Valparaiso (not Santiago)

shipping to Lima - hmmm yes allow more lead time if not with ASO out of Le Harve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebull2007 View Post
I think that's brilliant from where I am sitting.

Anyone want me to keep their bike for them?



Hey Garry! It was great meeting you in the Nasca bivouac, albeit briefly. I'm sorry we never got to link up after the rally. A great bunch of blokes you put together for this year's berg team, and well done for the finish

Valparaiso...that's even better!
Probably the best sea shipping option for you Oz boys yet! What's the extra sea time to get from LaHavre to Peru instead of Argentina? Got to be a fair bit of extra Euro for ASO to absorb too, no?

Do you reckon the benefit comes from racing action/interest running the route that way, or is it political pay off?


You guys heading back with a team again next year, Garry? Great job this year.
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Old 01-24-2012, 07:53 PM   #1215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PackMule View Post
Probably the best sea shipping option for you Oz boys yet! What's the extra sea time to get from LaHavre to Peru instead of Argentina? Got to be a fair bit of extra Euro for ASO to absorb too, no?

Do you reckon the benefit comes from racing action/interest running the route that way, or is it political pay off?


You guys heading back with a team again next year, Garry? Great job this year.

I bumped into a guy from Newfoundland a few years back. In pursuit of a girl he rode his XR650L across North America and shipped his bike down to Australia. After spending time time there he decided it was time to go back home (without the girl), but he realized that it wasn't much more to fly his bike back than to slow-boat it. He ended up flying it into Vancouver, then riding it back to Newfoundland.

But that was, who knows, maybe 10 years ago. It would be nice for the Aussie riders if it was still true.
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