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Old 01-21-2012, 04:38 PM   #16
_cy_ OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nulluser View Post
Heh, I was thinking about electric vehicles when I read the thread.

For a regular motorcycle, the most important thing to me is the self discharge rate. I would love to be able to park the bikes over the winter and never have to worry about starting them in the spring.
if self discharge is your most important criteria ... then a sealed battery like AGM will do the job. provided there is no ghost discharge (disconnect battery for long term) a new AGM battery will discharge at 1-2% .. so let's call it 3% self discharge per month. no battery tender needed.

lithium iron phosphate cells discharges at 2-3% per month (5-10% per month with smart circuits). note a gel cell battery is best at deep discharge applications. NO battery should discharged to completely dead. permanent damage typically occurs.

AGM and gel cell batteries are similar that both are sealed. they are not the same. Gel batteries should not be charged at over 14v ... permanent damage will occur.

_cy_ screwed with this post 01-26-2012 at 03:35 AM
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:20 AM   #17
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new information surfacing..... Shorai batteries are not compatible with EnDuraLast aftermarket charging systems for Airheads. does anyone know why?

No clue contained in Shorai spec's http://www.shoraipower.com/downloads/lfxspecs.pdf
note Amp hour ratings are listed as PB EQ, not conventional Ah hour
------------------------

Part #: EDL-VoltRect

Combination Electronic Voltage Regulator & Rectifier. Replaces BOSCH 3-phase diode board / rectifier and voltage regulator. Advanced metal ceramic heat transfer technology replaces the BMW R Airhead & Moto Guzzi diode board system. Mounts remotely outside the alternator cover for high reliability and performance. Not Compatible with lithium iron batteries as supplied by Shorai.

http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/Bos...ng_Kit_s/1.htm



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Old 01-23-2012, 10:01 AM   #18
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There are a couple of things to clear up here. You guys may know all of this already, but then again you may not.

When you are dealing with a lead acid battery of any chemistry, you have to take into account Peukert's law.

The basic idea here is that the realized capacity of a lead acid battery goes down proportionally related to the amperage of the load placed on the battery. Example, look at any deep cycle battery's 20Hr rate, vs. 10Hr rate. A perfect example is that BMW 51913 batteries used to be rated on a 20 hr rate to give the 19AH rating. They are now rated at a 10 hr rate to give the 18AH rating. Ampere Hour ratings mean that a load of (X) was placed on the battery for a certain number of hours, standard rating is 20 hours, and that is lasted that full 20 hours before flat lining. For example if a battery is rated at 100AH @ a 20Hr rate, then they placed a 5 amp load on that battery, and it lasted for 20 hours. The problem comes when you try to then mentally translate that to a 10 Hr rate. So if you say, want to run a 10 amp load on the battery that is rated at 100AH @ 20 Hrs, you think it will last for 10 hours, but that is not true. As your amperage increases, the realized capacity of the battery will decrease in proportion to the amperage. If you have two ratings, eg. a 20Hr and a 10Hr, then you can use Peukert's law to figure out what the exponent that determines the proportional change is. That is far more complicated that I need to go into here, but what you need to know is that different types of lead acid batteries of differing qualities will have different rates of discharge.
When you then translate the AH rating to Lithium you are faced with some challenges. The standard for so long has been lead acid, rated at a 20hr/then 10 hr rate. To further complicate things, when you are dealing with starting engines, the construction of the standard standard starting lead acid battery is heavily in favor of the short term discharge rate, and not so much on the deep cycle side. This leads to ratings like CCA, taken at freezing temp. for 30 seconds at 1/2 voltage. That sort of situation is absolutely impossible to put on a lithium based battery, because they cannot put out power at 1/2 voltage. So the CCA ratings on lithium batteries are essentially the short circuit current possible for the cells they are constructed with through their BMS systems.



The problem with amp hours though, continues. Some manufacturers of Lithium starting batteries, Shorai, Braile battery, and others, have chosen to differentiate between AH, and AH PBEQ. If Shorai or Braile ever makes a deep cycle application battery, then they will have to rate that battery in actual AH @ 20 Hr rate. Which, btw does not change for Lithium. There is no Peukert's law for lithium batteries. A lithium 100AH would discharge in 20 hrs at 5 amps, and 10 hours at 10 amps. But I digress. For starting motorcycles, Shorai and Braile know there are all of us persnickety BMW guys out here who want an 18 AH battery Darn it! So, they use AH PBEQ to compare their batteries to the Lead Acids we all have been using forever. The issue is that there are people who don't read the warnings, like (DONT USE ON ELECTRIC VEHICLES!!) because they figure that they have just figured out a way to power their electric tike off of a 2 pound battery. A Lithium battery that had an actual 18AH rating would weigh a lot more than 2 pounds. But, if you are just trying to start engines, and run lights while your bike is running and producing a charge, then you don't need a true 18AH. You need the equivalent to your old lead acid 18AH battery.


Moral of the story boys and girls is to use these batteries for what they were designed to do. (And when you disregard their purpose and try to run your laptop/coffeemaker/fridge/freight train off of them and it doesn't work , don't yell at their makers, go look in the mirror and have your anger management session.) A Shorai/Braile battery that is rated at 18AH PBEQ will only have an actual 6 AH inside of it in flat prismatic cells, not A123's, I have taken them apart. Granted, you can actually use 96% of that 6AH, but it will not run a 2 amp electric motor for 9 hours, it will run it for 3. And for the record, your BMW 18AH @ 10Hr rate starting battery will only run it for 3 hrs as well.
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J117 screwed with this post 01-23-2012 at 10:18 AM Reason: spelling,grammar..
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Old 01-23-2012, 02:12 PM   #19
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there's a report of Shorai battery catching on fire? ...

Lithium iron phosphate cells in prismatic or cylinder shape are the most stable of all li-ion cells. ALL batteries will overheat if overcharged. prismatic cells in flat form usually will balloon out when overcharged. but not catch on fire like older li-ion cells. my guess is something shorted out, causing all the smoke.

http://www.superhawkforum.com/forums...ic-fail-24934/

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Old 01-23-2012, 03:02 PM   #20
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Well good thing my AGM is showing no sign dying.
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:34 PM   #21
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The problem with amp hours though, continues. Some manufacturers of Lithium starting batteries, Shorai, Braile battery, and others, have chosen to differentiate between AH, and AH PBEQ. If Shorai or Braile ever makes a deep cycle application battery, then they will have to rate that battery in actual AH @ 20 Hr rate. Which, btw does not change for Lithium. There is no Peukert's law for lithium batteries. A lithium 100AH would discharge in 20 hrs at 5 amps, and 10 hours at 10 amps. But I digress. For starting motorcycles, Shorai and Braile know there are all of us persnickety BMW guys out here who want an 18 AH battery Darn it! So, they use AH PBEQ to compare their batteries to the Lead Acids we all have been using forever. The issue is that there are people who don't read the warnings, like (DONT USE ON ELECTRIC VEHICLES!!) because they figure that they have just figured out a way to power their electric tike off of a 2 pound battery. A Lithium battery that had an actual 18AH rating would weigh a lot more than 2 pounds. But, if you are just trying to start engines, and run lights while your bike is running and producing a charge, then you don't need a true 18AH. You need the equivalent to your old lead acid 18AH battery.


Moral of the story boys and girls is to use these batteries for what they were designed to do. (And when you disregard their purpose and try to run your laptop/coffeemaker/fridge/freight train off of them and it doesn't work , don't yell at their makers, go look in the mirror and have your anger management session.) A Shorai/Braile battery that is rated at 18AH PBEQ will only have an actual 6 AH inside of it in flat prismatic cells, not A123's, I have taken them apart. Granted, you can actually use 96% of that 6AH, but it will not run a 2 amp electric motor for 9 hours, it will run it for 3. And for the record, your BMW 18AH @ 10Hr rate starting battery will only run it for 3 hrs as well.
seems we have a real battery expert on board ... thanks for weighing in.

yes your comment about BMW folks wanting a real 18amp hour battery is dead on. thanks for verifying my comment about it's not possible for a real 18amp hour battery to weigh only 2lbs.

that's why a 20 amp hour lithium iron phosphate battery that weighs 6.5lbs is en-route. an external overcharge protection circuit will be used to prevent unlikely event of a battery fire. while lithium iron phosphate chemistry is extremely safe... there's several fires on record for the highly regarded and expensive A123 cells.

lithium iron phosphate batteries using prismatic cells are fairly new, so feedback is thin as yet. vs a long history of lithium polymer packs with the RC folks. NO one runs battery packs harder than the RC crowd. seems lithium poly packs are still chemistry of choice (for RC) due to higher energy density and just as important voltage compatibility with existing chargers/controllers.

which leads back to why IHMO li-ion batteries in motorcycles should have some type of protection circuit to prevent overcharge. over discharge will kill any battery... lead acid and li-ion included. just that li-ion operates on a narrow voltage range that may be different from your bike's charging system.

it's my intention to do high amp discharge tests at low temp with different chemistry. results of discharge tests with lithium iron phosphate will be especially relevant.

_cy_ screwed with this post 01-23-2012 at 04:01 PM
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:42 PM   #22
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Yes sir, they absolutely have to have an overcharge protection circuit. Without it you would be seeing the above picture with flames all over the place... I'm not sure about using Lithium Polymer, at least not the way the RC world does it. Lithium Iron Phosphate, or Lithium Magnesium Phosphate seem like the safest, at least without having to modify your stock system, a simple overcharge protection circuit is really all the iron/mag phos. batteries need.

I'm looking forward to seeing what your results are. Good Luck!








*For freebies you should contact the manufacturer's. Shorai is run by some particularly nice folks..
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:06 PM   #23
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I haven't read this thread fully yet, will a bit later today, but it seems the wrong abbreviation is used for the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. Its NOT Li-Ion, but LiFePO4. Important difference.
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:49 PM   #24
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I haven't read this thread fully yet, will a bit later today, but it seems the wrong abbreviation is used for the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. Its NOT Li-Ion, but LiFePO4. Important difference.
naming conventions change over time.... for us early li-ion users. lithium iron phosphate is but one chemistry within the li-ion family. each with advantages, disadvantages and operating volt ranges.

then to confuse things further, we add how cells are constructed into the mix. then to confuse things more, some batteries have protection circuits to prevent over-charge and over-discharge.

there's some common characteristics all li-ion cells share. which are high energy density (light weight), high discharge rates and specific operating voltage range (related to each particular chemistry)

one characteristic with early li-ion cells, performance can drop in extreme cold conditions.
remains to be seen how the new generation lithium iron phosphate with prismatic construction performs in extreme cold.
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:35 PM   #25
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that seems to be the basic problem ... aside from custom packs made from 4x A123 cells bundled together to make up 12v... there's very little information available.

what we need feedback on is the newer lithium iron phosphate batteries made from prismatic cells. which are just started to be marketed to motorcycles. for the electric scooter crowd lithium iron phosphate has a decent track record.

note... anyone that's used a new generation li-ion battery powered drill from Dewalt, Milwaukee, etc has used lithium iron phosphate batteries.

here's what's en route to me. a true 20AH lithium iron phosphate battery that happens to be the correct dimension for my R80G/S. note this 20ah battery weight 6lbs vs Shorai 18ah (claimed) weight 2lb .. conclusion so far ... not possible for a battery that weight 2lb to deliver a true 20ah capacity. note the balancer listed is for overcharge protection.

http://www.electricmotorsport.com/st...f_gbs_20ah.php



Shorai 18ah (claimed)
http://www.batterystuff.com/powerspo...18A1-BS12.html

I had the same notion about trying out these batteries about 2 1/2 years ago. I made my own A123 Cell pack soldered it together and said what the hell.... It was an 8 cell set up. 4 in series x 2 in parallel. A "4.6" Ah unit which seemed grossly underpowered for my BMW F650 GS.

So I could not believe it when it cranked the bike over. And over and over. At first I would just ride a few miles... but now I've had the same unit the entire 2 1/2 year period without a hitch. So, yes, I started selling a few to fellow ADV riders and searched for a better setup. That's why I went with the Ballistic over the Shorai.

First off, it is really confusing to lump LiFEPO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) batteries into the whole Li-ion class. Totally different chemistry and they don't explode. They do get hot but don't blow up...

Vehicle batteries come in 2 basic types: Those for starting which CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) mean high discharge rates for cranking the starter... but are not necessarily able to discharge down to a low voltage and be recharged.... and "Deep Cycle" or "Marine" type batteries that can discharge to a much lower voltage and be fully recharged over and over, but may or may not have high CCAs. That's why your garden variety lead-acid battery rates both its CCAs for starting and its Ah or amp hour capacity. Big batteries. That's why they're so heavy. They do it all.

The battery that cy shows is likely a marine type of battery that may not even crank over the beemers starting motor. It's rated at 10C pulsed which is the same as 10 cranking amps compared to at least 120 that the bike will need. The 20Ah is designed for a constant 3 amp discharge which would be perfect for a solar house battery.

The batteries I use are A123 26650 cylindrical cells made in the USA... and the Shorais use a similar chemistry prismatic made in China. I honestly can't say at this point which one is better since there has not been enough time to judge.

If the Shorais turn out to be the winner I will convert. But at this point, the Ballistic Components seem to have a better build with brass battery terminals, so I will stand on that.

As far as temperature affecting these, it's absolutely true. Here's a temperature chart in Celsius:



I'm not going to argue the science, but in practical terms the A123s are capable of quick self-heating at low temperatures
by 5-8 second starting bursts repeated 3 - 4 times at temperatures around 0F (Testing these on a 1979 Yamaha 340e at 10,000 ft. 0F in Brian Head, UT) Again, I was skeptical until trying them.

I think the Shorai batteries sell well and I have sold a lot of my own Sycl batteries and the Ballistics. The only difference being the Ballistic come in sealed plastic cases and the Sycl are shrink wrapped.

Cy--- if you want to test one of mine PM me and I''ll send you one. If someone comes out with the perfect battery I'm all over it, but these are pretty awesome.
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:37 PM   #26
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if self discharge is your most important criteria ... then a sealed battery like AGM will do the job. provided there is no ghost discharge (disconnect battery for long term) a new AGM battery will discharge at 1-2% .. so let's call it 3% self discharge per month. no battery tender needed.

lithium iron phosphate cells discharges at 5-10% per month .... so AGM wins here. note a gel cell battery is best at deep discharge applications. NO battery should discharged to completely dead. permanent damage typically occurs.

AGM and gel cell batteries are similar that both are sealed. they are not the same. Gel batteries should not be charged at over 14v ... permanent damage will occur.

Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries DO NOT discharge at 5-10% per month. Real world experience here. Less than 1% per month static use.
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:19 PM   #27
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Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries DO NOT discharge at 5-10% per month. Real world experience here. Less than 1% per month static use.
that's been my experience as well... 1-2% per month for (bare, non-protected) li-ion cells I've personally used. Note the 5-10% figure was for smart circuits. protected li-ion cells drains ranged from almost no drain to rates comparable to wet lead acid.

herein lies the problem of data all over the place.

very proud to say that I was part of the small group of initial adopters on Candlepower forums. we were among the world first users of individual li-ion cells. as in up close and personal ... in bleeding edge flashlights.

the world's first protected li-ion cell was conceived on Candlepower forums. pioneered by JS Burley, who mortaged his house to finance those first R123 protected cells. delays after delays... I was part of the original group buy for those cells. finally the Chinese factory finally did deliver ... they barely performed with a miserable 150 milliamp capacity.

what happened next repeated itself many times ... the Chinese then took the technology paid for by JS Burley and proceeded to develop the li-ion technology into the mature li-ion cells in common use today. JS Burley ended up losing his shirt over developing world's first protected R123 cells.

most of the dangers occurred during the charging process. back then I used a Triton and Shulze charger. unlike lithium iron phosphate's very stable chemistry. early li-ion cells had entirely different characteristics.

along with li-ion's desirable characteristics ... danger of li-ion happened during charging. li-ion cells will take a charge long as voltage is delivered... until thermal runaway (explosion) occurs some where about 4.9v. unlike lithium iron phosphate. lithium cobalt operating range is 4.2v fully charged.... 3.5v discharged. very little residual current remains to 3v where permanent damage occurs to cell.

many advances since those early days....

_cy_ screwed with this post 01-28-2012 at 09:29 AM
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Old 01-24-2012, 11:05 PM   #28
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Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries DO NOT discharge at 5-10% per month. Real world experience here. Less than 1% per month static use.
Mate, mine haven't been used since you sent them to me over a year ago and last month still showed over 12V. Starting to get a little concerned though. You reckon I should put them on my Ctek drip charger?

I also agree that putting them in the abbreviation of Li-Ion is confusing as it's becoming or is now industry standard to abbreviate them to LiFePo4. Not my thread, but just saying.
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Old 01-25-2012, 06:18 AM   #29
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Mate, mine haven't been used since you sent them to me over a year ago and last month still showed over 12V. Starting to get a little concerned though. You reckon I should put them on my Ctek drip charger?

I also agree that putting them in the abbreviation of Li-Ion is confusing as it's becoming or is now industry standard to abbreviate them to LiFePo4. Not my thread, but just saying.
Taco, do you have a running bike you could hook it up to? If it were mine, I'd charge it up that way if possible. Otherwise, yes at this point I'd put it on a trickle charger. I try to keep mine above 13.25 volts.
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Old 01-25-2012, 08:46 AM   #30
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so much for trying to keep this thread non-technical

here's a few links with hopefully digestable information ... first one is from MIT, second is by NASA. your tax dollars hard at work freely used all over the world. strangely enough very limited use in America.

A123 pdf link ... OK.. the real title is: Electrochemical Energy Storage for Transportation & Power Grid
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...hG-9cQ&cad=rja

Designing Safe Lithium-Ion Battery. Packs Using Thermal Abuse Models PDF
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...Y8z02Q&cad=rja

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