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Old 03-02-2012, 11:14 PM   #1576
Jud
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Croak View Post
Thing is, with a modern chain, there's very little power delivery delta between a "well maintained" and a neglected chain. Even if the chain is more loose than it should be, it's still a direct mechanical connection and once it's fully loaded and in a steady state, losses are barely worse than with a properly tightened and lubed chain. For that matter, external lube has almost no impact on efficiency, just durability...modern chains are internally lubed, you know.

15-20% is still a realistic loss percentage on a shaft drive. Part of that is the extra gearing needed to couple the crank to the drive shaft and then to the rear hub, but the biggest parasitic losses come from weight. The mass of a shaft drive and associated gearing is many times greater than a chain drive, there's simply no getting around that.
I really think that 15-20% is a smidge high man. Modern cars with manual trannys have loses in that range or less {many in the 10-15% range}. Modern autos often return loses in the 15-25% range with the lower numbers being econo type cars with tight converters and the higher loses being associated with performance autos with looser converters {higher stall}. As an apples to apples example, most sources put my 04 FJR's hp at roughly 140-145hp at the crank and most sources list RWHP in the 125-130 range. That sounds like 15% to me worst case and around 10% in most cases so,,,, 10-15%. Not alot in argument's sake but it does mean alot in terms of outright power loss comparison. If my 98 Camaro with a 4 speed auto can return 20-25% loss numbers and my old 2000 Firebird with a M6 can return 10-15% numbers I find it hard to believe a modern motorcycle shaft would lose the same much less double?????

But who knows, maybe you are dead on with that 15-20% number but we should find out soon. My guess would be well under that 15%, probably right around 10%. You are absolutely right in that higher rotating mass hurts acceleration{hp} but once again this shouldn't be a huge factor and man,,,,,,, diss ain't no repli-racer and ultimate performance is less important in this class than low maintenance especially considering the miles many will be laying down. In any event, we are only talking what, maybe a 10-15hp difference between the two {chain vs shaft}if that? I consider that more than a worth while trade for no maintenance. I absolutely love the shaft drive on my FJR and my wife's Ascot. The FJR has over 75K miles on it without a single issue. I changed out the oil at around 25K miles for some synthetic and I lubed the pumpkin splines at the same time. Took what, maybe 30 minutes extra to do while changing tires?The Ascot going on 25K and it's going on 30 years old with nary and issue. Maintenance??? I did change the oil in it at around 25 yrs and 7K miles. In contrast, I have averaged a new chain and sprockets every 10-20K miles {just depends on the chain and how much I play} on my DL at a cost of around 150-200$ so each time so I'm looking at around 500$ just in crappin chains so far.

On the other hand, I've had to gear the piss outta the DL to get the off road performance I want and had that bike been a shaftie, that wouldn't have been an option so there are advantages and disadvantages and I and most others understand that. My FJR's gearing is spot on if a bit low but that's Yamaha's fault for not building enough gearing spread and hopefully Triumph will learn that these type bikes really need a nice wide tranny spread. At least a nice tall and lazy OD 6th gear anyway.
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Jud screwed with this post 03-02-2012 at 11:58 PM
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Old 03-03-2012, 05:18 AM   #1577
littlefield
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The motorcylce-usa article insinuated the change to the driveshaft alone accounted for a 15-20% loss. That would mean from the crank to the rear wheel would be, what, 20-25%? 25-30%? Yikes.
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:31 AM   #1578
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There hasn't been a press demo review yet, that's complained about a lack of power, instead they've focused on the strong bottom to midrange performance, with some vibration up top if it's neck is wrung.

So let's say 115 rwhp, with a stronger low to midrange pull than the MS1200, which needs higher revs to exploit it's explosive output.

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Old 03-03-2012, 08:17 AM   #1579
GaelicDog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 996DL View Post


There hasn't been a press demo review yet, that's complained about a lack of power, instead they've focused on the strong bottom to midrange performance, with some vibration up top if it's neck is wrung.

So let's say 115 rwhp, with a stronger low to midrange pull than the MS1200, which needs higher revs to exploit it's explosive output.

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Old 03-03-2012, 08:20 AM   #1580
Dr. Greg
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FWIW, rotational mass (i.e. "inertia") theoretically has no effect on power output. Inertia definitely affects acceleration, however (inertia is basically resistance to any change in speed).

Practically speaking, heavier/larger drivetrain components could result in higher bearing loading (w/more friction), windage losses, etc., and consequently would reduce power.

Not tryin' to start yet another physics debate, just sayin'...

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Old 03-03-2012, 02:19 PM   #1581
GrahamD
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Originally Posted by Dr. Greg View Post

Not tryin' to start yet another physics debate, just sayin'...

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Thanks doc

Makes more sense to me.
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Old 03-04-2012, 05:11 AM   #1582
GaelicDog
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So when do the real tests and shootout's start???

What country takes deliver first?
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Old 03-04-2012, 10:01 AM   #1583
RaY YreKa
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Originally Posted by GaelicDog View Post
So when do the real tests and shootout's start???

What country takes deliver first?
First shoot-out, I expect, will be in MCN (UK).
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:28 AM   #1584
KildareMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaelicDog View Post
So when do the real tests and shootout's start???

What country takes deliver first?
Launch in Ireland is 17th March (St Patrick's day)

UK is the 22nd of March
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Old 03-04-2012, 10:12 PM   #1585
Farside13
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Launch date

Launch in South Africa (Johannesburg) 21 March

My bike gets delivered shortly thereafter
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:59 PM   #1586
nwbiker
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Launch Date

Any word on a launch date in the States? My dealer simply claims "May-ish."
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:18 PM   #1587
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Originally Posted by nwbiker View Post
Any word on a launch date in the States? My dealer simply claims "May-ish."
From what I've been told my bike is coming to my dealer on the first shipment and should be here mid May
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:25 AM   #1588
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From what I've been told my bike is coming to my dealer on the first shipment and should be here mid May
Okay, thanks. Curious why it takes 2 more months to get it here than South Africa but I'll be patient.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:04 PM   #1589
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Dutch Explorer review

Hi,

Just wanted to share with you some results on a test the ANWB did in Spain.
ANWB is the Dutch association for motorists (both car and motorcycle) and cyclists.

In essence they are pleased with the bike and admire the attempt take on the BMW GS.
They also appreciate that Triumph sticks to the 3-cylinder concept.


But they also found some flaws, some minor, some not so minor...

... Ride-by-Wire: "No feeling", it's to smooth, resulting in unwanted throttle response. Driving through a pit/ditch/hole may result in giving extra gas when you don't want to do that.

... The engine: it runs as your typical Triumph-engine, but experiences quite some vibrations around the 4000 rpm range.

... Cruisecontrol: needs work appearently as it easy to switch it off when you fiddle with the control because of an overtake-action for instance. And when it's not switched off it takes the system to long to get back on track.

... Steering: maneuvering is not it's strong point as the bike is heavy. And that weight is positioned relatively high in the bike, making it top-heavy. There is also room for improvement regarding stability at higher speeds especially with the luggage-system mounted on.

... Brakes: according to ANWB the worst part on the bike, in particular with regard to ABS. There's no bite or feedback when ABS kicks in. With ABS switched off the reponse is much better. The rear brake gives no feedback at all.


cosmetic thingies, being...

... Shaftdrive: it is being compared to the leftarm of Robocop (and they figure he would remove it himself).
... General Look & Feel: It's not as emotional as the Speed or Street Triple and even the Tiger800 scores more points on that field. The design is said to be 'reserved' and the spectacular colors are missed. My interpretation is that they found it a bit boring on some aspects.



If you have questions on how other properties/features were judged, let me know. I'll try to answer them to the best of my abilities.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:16 PM   #1590
Bundu
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Originally Posted by ndeeka View Post
Hi,

Just wanted to share with you some results on a test the ANWB did in Spain.
ANWB is the Dutch association for motorists (both car and motorcycle) and cyclists.
doesn't sound too positive... care to share the FULL report with us?
Hollandhanzie, your opinion?

we don't have our 1st BMW troll here do we?
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