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Old 11-22-2011, 12:09 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCoot View Post
Having never done this before I was a bit nervous, and wondered what I didn't know...
I looked around on other photo contest web sites to see what their rules included and how they protected themselves. I think I actually pulled rule #12 from one of the big publications.
Yes, that language is quite common. Would not necessarily hold up in court (like liability waivers) though. Imagine if a mortgage had, at the bottom, something to the effect of:

Ignore everything above, because we can change anything we want anytime we want.

Not much of a contract, really.

Thanks again for a mature, reasonable and courteous discussion.
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:22 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FakeName View Post
Yes, that language is quite common. Would not necessarily hold up in court (like liability waivers) though. Imagine if a mortgage had, at the bottom, something to the effect of:

Ignore everything above, because we can change anything we want anytime we want.

Not much of a contract, really.

Thanks again for a mature, reasonable and courteous discussion.
Hey, thank you, too, Fake. You made a lot of good points... and you helped me see some of the potential problems -- for both photographers and myself.
I'll keep thinking this through... I'm going to let the contest run it's course and try very hard to not take advantage of anyone.
Hopefully I'll also find a good local photographer who can help me put this together, and compensate him/her fairly. (I talked to one today who has done some good work. We'll see...)
Thanks again.
Steve
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Old 11-23-2011, 09:18 PM   #18
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Best of luck with your publication, it's a tough time to do it, and I respect your courage.

If you need help writing a contract with your photographer(s) I'd be happy to help. I'm not a lawyer, but having been ont he photo side of the fence for some time, I probably know more about the intricacies than most members of the bar.

Happy to help.
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Old 11-24-2011, 06:34 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by FakeName View Post
Best of luck with your publication, it's a tough time to do it, and I respect your courage.

If you need help writing a contract with your photographer(s) I'd be happy to help. I'm not a lawyer, but having been ont he photo side of the fence for some time, I probably know more about the intricacies than most members of the bar.

Happy to help.
Wow, thanks. This almost looks too good to be true... I'll send a PM... Thanks again!
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Old 11-24-2011, 08:11 AM   #20
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As a 30 year veteran wire service shooter I saw this and then looked at the contest rules and was going to respond but FakeName and Riteris said everything that needed to be pointed out from a professional's prospective. I do have a ton of images from that region from my Allsport days when I lived in NC but Im not willing to give it away.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:39 AM   #21
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There were so many great photos entered in our contest that it was a tough decision, but last night we announced the winners of our photography contest on www.blueridgetravelguide.com

All these photographers continue to do an awesome job of demonstrating how beautiful this area is... Thanks!



I'm working on the new travel book and should have it done by mid-May. Almost a dozen professional photographers have contributed some of their most amazing photos for it.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:54 AM   #22
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Too many people desperate to get there work in print have devalued photography and make it harder for pro's to make a real living. Various magazines I deal with expect work for free that they used to pay for. Because there are hundred amateurs ready to give it away to see it in print. The business isn't what it use to be. Its sad in a way. It made me go back to school.
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:27 PM   #23
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Let me first say that I understand and respect the point of view that FakeName is coming from, and more so, the way he expressed it.

That said, the oft-heard complaints after "devaluing" photography, as posted by DenniSMC, don't ring very true to me. If a magazine, website, or other publication can get the photos that they need at an acceptable level of quality for a lower price (or free), why shouldn't they? It seems like there is an idea that they should pick someone who is a "professional" to do the job, and that they should pay them more because of that. This just doesn't make sense. If you're doing something that other people can do for cheaper, why should you be paid more?

I think that, on some level, technology has broken down some barriers to entry for photography, especially on the low level, and so people who previously couldn't participate now can. Maybe it's changing the way the business is, and I can see how it would be frustrating to someone who is used to a particular status quo, but it is the way it is. There still is, and always will be, a market for true quality photography; that market just may not be as big as some of us wish it was.

A reasonable analogy might be bands and musical groups that are willing to release their work for free or low cost online, instead of selling it for $20 per CD through a big name label. Are old school "professional" musicians complaining about these "crappy" artists stealing some of their market share? Perhaps, but I have trouble seeing that they are doing anything wrong. Everybody has the right to sell (or give away) their work for the price they want. Some might see this as people helping to break up an existing "monopoly" driving prices up.

Let me state that I COMPLETELY understand that there is a HUGE difference between a good photographer and a hack like me, and I would never suppose that my images are up to professional standards. However, if a magazine decides that they are, that's their call, not mine.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:56 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by kpt4321 View Post
Let me first say that I understand and respect the point of view that FakeName is coming from, and more so, the way he expressed it.
We don't disagree.

If I had a daughter, I'd advise her not to be slutty and "give it away for free". But I realize young men are able to get sex wherever and whenever they'd like. So the pressure would be on my daughter to give it up, right?

It's the same for photographers- I believe if they have something of great value, they shouldn't be slutty about it. Have some dignity and self-worth, recognize your gift and value it.

But, like the old sexual morays, I'm a bit of a dying breed.

You're completely right about all your points.
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:38 AM   #25
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A couple of things from an old (not so wise) publisher's perspective...

I've bought a few original photos from pros in decades past. At the time they were worth what we paid for them or we wouldn't have done it. We were selling content in print to subscribers who paid a reasonable price for our publications. Today there are very few publishers making money from print media. Like photogs, publishers have been forced to completely adjust their business model due to the digital age.

As we all know, virtually every facet of society has been hit by industry changes and new technology. Mom and pop stores were clobbered by big box retailers; big box stores are still trying to adjust to/compete with Amazon, et al. The big three networks were almost put out of business by cable; now cable is competing with Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, and the like. And last I heard, music was not doing so well either. Add to all this, the consumer market is not growing much, if any, due to birth control and the fact that our generation is not being replaced. So the pie continues to be divided into smaller pieces for all of us.

Having said that, I'm trying my hand at print once again. Maybe stupid, but I'm giving it another shot because I think it might help some of the businesses here in western North Carolina, and maybe produce some income so I can take my sweetheart out to dinner occassionally (and maybe take a MC trip each year). The goal is not to rip anyone off, but to give all of us some great exposure (starting with good photographers) to increase sales.

Fortuantely I found an awesome photography gallery with an owner who immediately recognized the value and potential of this exposure. He's providing some of the most beautiful fine art photos I've seen, and I'm giving his gallery 40 pages of free advertising (the pages would cost $60,000 if bought as ads). Hopefully, his help in getting the book out will generate lots of traffic to his gallery and sell a bunch of beautiful art by the pros who exhibit.

None of us knows for sure if it will work. It's a risk for all of us. But thankfully the only one out of pocket so far is me... and maybe, hopefully, we'll all see a fair return for our trouble and investment.

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Old 03-04-2012, 09:53 AM   #26
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Times change, that's a fact.
Well, we can agree times change. You'll have to trust me that my 30 years as a professional has provided me with an understanding of the marketplace that is, well, better than an outsider.

Look, I understand my old-fashioned values are never going to successfully persuade anyone that their images have value greater than the excitement of seeing an image published.

And I know this tiny voice in the wilderness will go unheard in the cattle call that photography has become.

But there are costs to this- long term costs, that the instant-gratification crowd will easily disregard.

My only goal for raising the issue is to encourage people to understand what they are giving away. To understand that giving images away for the financial benefit of others is a choice one makes- and it's not a simple choice for those with an understanding of the principle.

Further, I encourage people to understand the value of intellectual property. The ease of which people give away their creations is, to me, much like the high school slut who'll give ****jobs in the boy's bathroom. It degrades both parties. Yes, I understand others see this differently.

The long game? As is already happening with sites like Pinterest, the wholesale trading of images and lack of value of copyright has degraded the concept of ownership of intellectual property IN GENERAL, not just for images. We're seeing the same degradation in writing, illustration and *patents*. So, where once a creative entrepreneur (remember them?) could design, invest and build new and innovative products with the very real expectation of a financial reward, one can now expect immediate low-ball knockoffs- witness the discussion elsewhere regarding the Giant Loop products.

So, big deal, right? Don't we all enjoy lower prices for things? And don't we deserve to have for ourselves what others claim to "own" simply because they created it? I mean, who do they think they are- they should create things for the common good, right?

Anyone heard of Reardon Metal? It's my hope that those younger than I (a majority of inmates, I suspect) might google Reardon Metal and be interested enough to actually read the book.

Enough. I've made my points, and anyone is welcome to now take their last shots.
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Old 03-13-2012, 12:05 PM   #27
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(Nice to see a well thought-out, rational, mature discussion around here. Really enjoyable).

I understand your concerns and comments. I want to make a few in return.

First, I think that the larger discussion of IP is an interesting/good one, but I am not sure that it is completely relevant in this context. My brother and I recently had a good discussion about this, with regard to digital media, and it's a very fascinating topic. However, I don't think that one person (ostensibly not a "professional" photographer) under-pricing his work relative to a professional photog is a matter of IP. In no way has either party's IP been violated, that I can see.

Second, while I understand the point that you are trying to make with the sexual references, I think it may be worthwhile to reconsider those. You're approaching that from one point of view that is not necessarily wrong, but that doesn't mean that others are right. More specifically, you state that "it degrades both parties." I think this is innocently simplified at the least, at the worst offensive. Other people have different moral standards, and I don't see it as a clear fact that some level of sexual promiscuity between consenting adults is in any way a great analogy or "degrading." Cases of one's teenage daughter are entirely different matters...

Finally, while I appreciate your reference to Rand, I am not sure it directly applies. Nobody is talking about forcibly taking one man's photography (or IP, or metal formulation) and giving it away with some "common good" justification. To attempt to make an analogy, we're talking about a "lesser man" coming up with his own (unique but less effective) metal formulation and others choosing it over Rearden Metal because, while it is inferior, it is sufficient for their needs and costs less. I don't think Hank or Dagny would find a crime in that, although neither of them would settle for anything less than the best for their own use.

And let's be honest, Dagny would also not buy your anti-promiscuity argument, she gets around a little bit.

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Old 03-13-2012, 12:27 PM   #28
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Surely you're not suggesting I exaggerate and choose polarizing examples are you?

I know, don't call you Shirley

Your points are valid. I am painting a extreme case with a mighty broad brush.

I have no problem with informed consenting adults giving away anything- as long as there is an understanding of that exchange. The reason for my comments is to encourage understanding of exactly what talented photograhpers give away (high school restrooms notwithstanding) when they enter an agreement as offered by the original poster.

(Note here- OP is a good guy, we've emailed off-line, I wish him well, and glad it appears he's happy with the results).

If someone like the OP needs quality images, one should consider that need when providing images free. By doing so, the giver is essentially subsidizing the OP's new yacht (that's humor!). Sure- the giver could suggest the return- publication- is itself a thrill like no other and thus creating an exchange of value.

But I personally could care less about being published- it don't pay the mortgage, it don't buy a Canon 1ds, and it don't buy Pirelli MT43s. I just finished clearing out my studio of old tearsheets, magazines, catalogs, annual reports etc that I've photographed and contained my images. Into the garbage- the publication has no value to me, only the money.

Does that make ME a prostitute? Damn straight.

Prostitution I admire, slutty, I don't

Thanks, all for a reasonable discussion.
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Old 03-13-2012, 12:27 PM   #29
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Oh- and yes, I know I'm an old fossil, and yes, I understand that times they are a-changing.
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:25 AM   #30
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Since it is that time of the year in the U.S., I am willing to do anyone's income tax return for free.

I don't know squat about accounting but hey, it is for free.

I can do some plumbing as well. I have a torch and a bottle of propane. I have soldered a dozen or so pipes together so I think I am pretty good at it.

I have a Dremel tool so I can do some dentistry for low cost too.

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