What kind of battery for adventuring, is Lithium up to the challenge?

[JRWooden]

Originally Posted by GoneAgain

...she's a 2012 (about 4 months old..

i haven't gone looking for purple dots yet

cheers!.

.

If you have a chance to look for those dots & get the part number off the back of the R/R please post?
Thanks!

It is curious that a few bikes seem to be charging "correctly" at 14.x volts while the majority charge at a "less than ideal" voltage...............

[JoelWisman]

Originally Posted by JRWooden

If you have a chance to look for those dots & get the part number off the back of the R/R please post?
Thanks!

It is curious that a few bikes seem to be charging "correctly" at 14.x volts while the majority charge at a "less than ideal" voltage...............

I'm telling you, BMW is running a test and substituting some regulators, at least that is what I suspect.

When I was with Volvo, we would go so far as to grind off part numbers on conspicuous parts we were substituting and stencil the normal part number back on, or pick a new part number out of thin air.

A part number I picked once was 8273558. The first 4 were my birthday and last 3 were same as original part # :)

It happens, manufactures and occasionally distributors do this. You don't need a special part number or colored dot unless you are going to call for the part back and want to make sure the dealer sends you the actually part and not just an equivalent part.

You usually don't need the part back, you just track what happens through the VIN warranty file.

In BMWs case, they will be looking to see if the alternate R/R fails, if the battery seems to fail sooner or later, if the ZFE or DME wig out from electrical noise, if the regulator gets so hot it makes grill marks on the riders leg, and for any other occurrence no matter how far fetched that seems to go with the part substitution.

You have to understand. Engineers with both the parts vendor and vehicle manufacture vet parts with huge mathematical equations and super computer simulations. Then hacks like me build test beds and throw whatever we can think of at the parts. Next it goes onto the internal fleet of test bikes and if you don't like them, it goes onto the corporate vehicles of ranking staff, without their knowledge. The last is the true beta test. Neither BMW or Volvo beta test on customers though it may seem like it.

All of this takes a year or two, which is why vehicle manufactures constantly get accused of taking forever to address known issues that you bet we don't acknowledge to customers as that only pisses them off worse.

Next up, the new part secretly goes onto a small number of vehicles picked at random. Dealers are not informed, often distributors like BMW Motorrad NA are not informed, the customer is absolutely NEVER informed.

Once on a customer bike the real test starts because no matter how long you simulate, stress test, and run the part on the internal fleet, customers will do things that never ever would have occurred to corporate.

If the need is urgent, say brake lines are cracking or such, engineers take their best guess, over-ingeneer and release the new part immediately. That is how you end up with recalls on your recalls :)

Either wary, manufactures are not transparent because they need a blind tests to truly vet new parts AND because to be honest, there is a bit of a herd mentality with customers. I am NOT putting anyone down! If I still owned an F8 I would be part of the herd and depending on which way I was wired, either disappointed I had the old regulator or stressed that I had a new un-vetted regulator.


Speaking of un-vetted...... I have modified two F800GS charging systems by inserting resistance between the stator and R/R. I ended up going with 0.09 ohms and saw peak charging power go down to 379 watts, idle charging power was not measurably affected. Stator temperature is the same at idle but down 9C at 4,000 RPM which is better then expected.

One rider is local and the other hales from AZ. Both riders are sworn to silence to maintain warranty i.e. this test is blind to even BMW lol.

Assuming these bikes don't explode in the next 2 months, or have the stators fail, i'll post how I made the changes and others can jump in on the experiment if they decide to.

All for now, back to testing batteries, wish me luck as the last battery I tested just released a cloud of hydrogen in my living room :)

[JoelWisman]

Originally Posted by REVjimenez

1.) To start with, Federal laws (and some state laws) require large scale resellers of the the Lithium based batteries to set up a special process for
(a) storing old batteries
(b) transporting old batteries
NOTE: neither could tell me what defines a large scale reseller nor the exact statute of law governing disposing of used batteries.

CFR49 governs transportation and disposal of lithium batteries and a few states have additional laws on the books having to do with recycling. Federally, if you are accepting or transporting more then 210lbs of lithium batteries a month for disposal, you need a special permit.

It is illegal for consumers to throw away lead/acid batteries in all 50 of the United States, which of course does not mean you can't, it simply means you will be breaking a law that has no enforcement mechanism I am aware of. It is actually legal to throw away lithium batteries in many locals.

Personally I am a fan of recycling. For lithium battery recycling, including the LiFePo4 batteries I am testing that got in bikes, Call2Recycle accepts them free from consumers. They have a zillion drop off locations including 9 within a 5 mile radius of Savanna GA.

Originally Posted by REVjimenez

2.) Because of the heat involved on differing Lithium Ion batteries in differing bikes, they won't take the liability of the battery bursting into flames...I was initially confused by this, but the manager knew about the Tesla Coupe and the fire damage as well as the overheating problem (the Coupe is now water cooled batteries I believe)...

The fire in the Tesla was actually caused by a wiring fault that was on a circuit powered by a small lead/acid battery, read this LINK The coolant fires, especially in GM products is owing to the use of flammable coolant on huge traction batteries. None of the lithium starter batteries for motorcycles or cars have any coolant of any kind, so I wouldn't be concerned about that aspect.

The fires from smallish batteries like laptop batteries that have made all the news are in packs using Lithium manganese or lithium cobalt chemistry. The brand name SLI batteries I am testing (AntiGravity, Ballistic, Shorai) all use Lithium ferrous phosphate chemistry which is a hell of a lot safer. To date, I have not heard of any LiFePo4 batteries causing fires on motorcycles, just releasing a cloud of mainly steam and getting hot enough to melt some plastic.

Lead/Acid batteries can fail this way too, and as it happens, a YTX12 lead/acid battery that is in my test group released a cloud of hydrogen while I was testing it about 12 hours ago.

I am not schilling for the lithium SLI battery manufactures and so far have been anything but impressed with Shorai's product, but..... Having watched video of LiFePo4 batteries deliberately melted down by hard shorting the battery terminals, it is less exciting then what lead /acid batteries do when you short them the same way.

Originally Posted by REVjimenez

3.) Most OEM car or motorcycle battery holders are too big for the Lithium Ion battery holders.

This is a plus in my book. At the least, Shorai and Ballistic ship with foam to use as a spacer so their battery can be shimmed to fit the same compartment and use the oe hold down, but I like free space to store tools or whatever. These batteries are so light you could safely hold them in place with velcro or zip ties!

Originally Posted by REVjimenez

4.) And, lithium Ion batteries are typically a factor of 1.5x or greater in price compared to the standard battery as of right now...though business has been a bit off over the last 3 years, they have sold more of an inexpensive line of batteries and thus for the foreseeable future, they don't see how they would be able to sell higher quantities of a more expensive battery...

They are expensive and longevity claims to off set this are not yet proven by time. You loose some weight and gain space, but if these batteries are worth the price is going to vary depending on your priorities, desires, and how these batteries actually end up performing.


Concerns about emerging technology are fair, but I think your Batteries Plus is being a bit unfair and alarmist.

[JRWooden]

Originally Posted by JoelWisman

I'm telling you, BMW is running a test and substituting some regulators, at least that is what I suspect.

When I was with Volvo, we would go so far as to grind off part numbers on conspicuous parts we were substituting and stencil the normal part number back on, or pick a new part number out of thin air.

...

Then hacks like me build test beds and throw whatever we can think of at the parts....

Speaking of un-vetted...... I have modified two F800GS charging systems by inserting resistance between the stator and R/R. I ended up going with 0.09 ohms and saw peak charging power go down to 379 watts, idle charging power was not measurably affected. Stator temperature is the same at idle but down 9C at 4,000 RPM which is better then expected.

One rider is local and the other hales from AZ. Both riders are sworn to silence to maintain warranty i.e. this test is blind to even BMW lol.

Assuming these bikes don't explode in the next 2 months, or have the stators fail, I'll post how I made the changes and others can jump in on the experiment if they decide to.

All for now, back to testing batteries, wish me luck as the last battery I tested just released a cloud of hydrogen in my living room :)

Thanks Joel...

1) The part of this I was not focusing on was that the "new" R/R might be camouflaged ...
I had "assumed" we'd be able to tell them apart... sigh.........

2) Where can I get a job as a "hack"

3) If wire insulation follows the "norm" (10C change in temp. doubles/halfs the rate of reaction)
9C would almost double the life of our stator ... sign me up to loose 20W of output!
What wattage rating resistors did you use? I would think 10W would be more than adequate?

In other news, I have a conversation going with one of the guys from ElectroSport, I'll post it here once I confirm he does not mind that I do so - one of his ideas was to use a better grade of wire so that resistance would be less and thus I^2*R heating would be less as well ...

[JoelWisman]

I didn't bother trying to find a zillion watt resistor, just used nicrome wire cut to length for resistance and sleeved it in fiberglass braid.

[JRWooden]

Originally Posted by JoelWisman

I didn't bother trying to find a zillion watt resistor, just used nicrome wire cut to length for resistance and sleeved it in fiberglass braid.

That's great ... ok maybe I wouldn't make such a good "hack" ....
Or at least would need some hack-OTJ-training

[GoneAgain]

Originally Posted by JRWooden

If you have a chance to look for those dots & get the part number off the back of the R/R please post?
Thanks!

It is curious that a few bikes seem to be charging "correctly" at 14.x volts while the majority charge at a "less than ideal" voltage...............

same as NCD''s... SH541SC....and a little white dot under the 'A'...

i like being 'special'



.

[JRWooden]

Originally Posted by GoneAgain

same as NCD''s... SH541SC....and a little white dot under the 'A'...

i like being 'special'

Folks tell me all time that I'm special... but usually they have a weird look on their faces....

MOVING ALONG:
I'm not sure what the "SC" suffix means compared to the more common "G" suffix.
A google search only shows up a few russian web pages that I haven't tried to translate........

I found a long thread here (54 pages):
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...harging-issues

And shorter one here:
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...issues/page36&

I have not read all the crap yet, but netting it out, I think that:
These guys seem to have the same R/R as most of us (SH541G-12),
and were complaining of the same issue (low charging voltage of 13.x volts).

The fix that seemed to work was to solder the 3 connections in the plug to the R/R from the stator
to reduce resistance, and then adding extra wires on the battery side of the R/R to beef up the connections from the R/R to battery again to allow less voltage drop / loss.

After doing so, they claim charging voltages of 14.x volts.

Have we already talked about this.... I'm having one of those "deja vu all over again" moments........

[ebrabaek]

Originally Posted by JRWooden

Folks tell me all time that I'm special... but usually they have a weird look on their faces....

MOVING ALONG:
I'm not sure what the "SC" suffix means compared to the more common "G" suffix.
A google search only shows up a few russian web pages that I haven't tried to translate........

I found a long thread here (54 pages):
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...harging-issues

And shorter one here:
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...issues/page36&

I have not read all the crap yet, but netting it out, I think that:
These guys seem to have the same R/R as most of us (SH541G-12),
and were complaining of the same issue (low charging voltage of 13.x volts).

The fix that seemed to work was to solder the 3 connections in the plug to the R/R from the stator
to reduce resistance, and then adding extra wires on the battery side of the R/R to beef up the connections from the R/R to battery again to allow less voltage drop / loss.

After doing so, they claim charging voltages of 14.x volts.

Have we already talked about this.... I'm having one of those "deja vu all over again" moments........

I gave up reading the whole thing.... Have you seen a diagram regarding what they did...... I don't like to copy something....looking at soldered wires....and electrical tape..... Nothing wrong with that in itself.... but it just doesnt cut it for me understanding what's done.... But a diagram will......

Erling

(ps) It looks like in part what was done was what we call the "free power mod" over in the Thumpertalk forum...

[alpi]

Originally Posted by JoelWisman

[...] To date, I have not heard of any LiFePo4 batteries causing fires on motorcycles, just releasing a cloud of mainly steam and getting hot enough to melt some plastic. [...]

I am afraid, there's at least one incident that received visibility and subsequently acknowledgement from a Shorai tech on the same forum. Since that incident, Shorai had made adjustments, so the risk is likely very much reduced, not to mention it wasn't that high to begin with (in comparison to LIPo type batteries used in RC model airplanes/cars which have 4.2V/cell, rather than LiFePO4 3.6V/cell, when fully charged).

From my perspective, LiFePO4 batteries are really "bleeding edge" technology, and early adopters are quite lucky to deal with a company like Shorai, known to stand behind their product (i.e. they send a replacement during warranty through overnight FedEx, and there are at least 3 fellow inmates, including me, who were the recipients). Now, if I can only make sure the R/R will always behave in the future...

[NCD]

Originally Posted by JoelWisman

I'm satisfied that your bike IS charging different as the readings are consistent and the drop in voltage at RPM that even the worst multimeter would pick up isn't there.

As to why? Your regulator is either defective in a pleasing way, or BMW is fielding some test units.

All manufactures secretly do this and none will ever admit it or do anything about it when caught.

Either way, I wouldn't worry about it, because what your regulator is doing is what others should be wishing theirs did :)

So, real world (besides my AGM getting a more solid charge) what does this mean in terms of stator longevity? Anything?

Again, if the RR talk is messin' up your battery thread kick us out!

[JRWooden]

Originally Posted by NCD

So, real world (besides my AGM getting a more solid charge) what does this mean in terms of stator longevity? Anything?

Again, if the RR talk is messin' up your battery thread kick us out!

NCD:
I would say that, if anything, the higher voltage at which your R/R is charging would improve the life of your stator.
Quantifying the effect is beyond my poor skills....

[JRWooden]

Originally Posted by ebrabaek

I gave up reading the whole thing.... Have you seen a diagram regarding what they did...... I don't like to copy something....looking at soldered wires....and electrical tape..... Nothing wrong with that in itself.... but it just doesnt cut it for me understanding what's done.... But a diagram will......

Erling

(ps) It looks like in part what was done was what we call the "free power mod" over in the Thumpertalk forum...

In short what they have done is improve the connections between the stator wiring and the crimp-on connectors plugging into the R/R and also beefed up the conductor size from the R/R to the battery terminals. This will cut losses in the system.

To me the most interesting part is that (apparently) the losses, and not some design change or defect in the R/R its self, are what caused the lower charging voltage ... or said another way, the R/R really WANTS to charge at 14.x volts but is being inhibited from doing so by external factors...

[ebrabaek]

Originally Posted by JRWooden

In short what they have done is improve the connections between the stator wiring and the crimp-on connectors plugging into the R/R and also beefed up the conductor size from the R/R to the battery terminals. This will cut losses in the system.

To me the most interesting part is that (apparently) the losses, and not some design change or defect in the R/R its self, are what caused the lower charging voltage ... or said another way, the R/R really WANTS to charge at 14.x volts but is being inhibited from doing so by external factors...

We have been doing this on the DRZ400 at the TT forum.....for a while now..... It is a real thing..... Well.. we only messed with the wire from the RR to the battery, but gained about 0.3-0.4 volts...... I can see doing this on the ac side....even though the ac travels easier than dc does.... Interesting..... Lemmethinkaboutthis....... I might jump on this and try this.... But I need to get my new meter first....and listen what Joel thinks regarding enlarging the hole here.... He can do the math....backwards and forwards...before I can pull a double shot of espresso.....



(ps).... here is a link to the Thumpertalk forum.... scroll down to the "free power mod"..... they list 0.5 volts gain... I saw 0.35..... So it works.....

http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/541...ree-power-mod/

Erling

[JRWooden]

Originally Posted by ebrabaek

(ps).... here is a link to the Thumpertalk forum.... scroll down to the "free power mod"..... they list 0.5 volts gain... I saw 0.35..... So it works.....

http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/541...ree-power-mod/

Erling

I feel a disturbance in the dark side of the force...............
It can't be this easy.....