Outer clutch basket play

crazybrit · 03-31-2012, 08:36 PM

I'm trying to figure out the cause of the vibration problem on my 950. I did a service/farkling of the bike last winter and afterwards I noticed it was much more vibey above 4500 rpm.

Having checked everything (really, see above thread

) today I pulled the clutch cover to have a look underneath.

Should there be this amount of play in the outer clutch basket? I found a thread by Yardstick asking the same question. He posted his thread on page 2 of this other thread where 850tc is complaining about a very similar vibration problem to me. StevenD's comment seems to indicate that some axial play is normal.

Like 850tc the excessive vibration can be reproduced on the side-stand or moving. Clutch in/out, neutral/in-gear makes no difference which is why I was curious on the outer basket. I don't have any free-play on the inner basket which I think indicates the nut is secure, looking at the repair manual I see there is supposedly a 30.3x50x2mm spacer washer behind the outer basket. I've never had the clutch apart, bike has 12k miles. Only thing I did at the last service was loosen and retorque the pressure plate bolts per-tsb.

Gustavo.Ramos · 04-01-2012, 05:23 AM

Recently i had the 950 clutch out to take care of the oil pump pressure valve and i'm sure mine didn't had that kind of "slack".

Take the clutch plates out untill you reach the big nut that secures the basket into the transmission shaft. This should be torked 130 Nm. In my 950 it come loose 2 times, one in the middle of the moroccan desert which meant a 5 hour wait for the pick up truck.

When that nut comes loose it will prevent also the outter basket clutch plates to fully engage, thus the cluth will start slipping untill there won't be any transmission. The other effect is that the nut by moving outwards will have the big basket loose which *might* be the early stage of what is happening in your bike.

Peanuts · 04-01-2012, 05:42 AM

There is not 2mm of play there, so the washer is in place. Its just a KTM thing.... lots of the KTM motors do this ;)

If the gap was too small you would get clutch drag as the inner and outer parts move together.

I guess you could get a slightly thicker washer made to try, if its a success, get one made and case hardened so it lasts.

crazybrit · 04-01-2012, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustavo.Ramos

The other effect is that the nut by moving outwards will have the big basket loose which *might* be the early stage of what is happening in your bike.

If that nut has backed out I can see how it could introduce play in the outer basket but shouldn't I also sense movement of the inner basket?

I'm not having any clutch issues. Just a marked increase in vibration above 4500rpm. At 70mpg on the highway in top gear it's right at 5000 rpm and the resulting vibration is totally draining. I've compared the bike to two other 06s, one didn't vibrate at all, the other had a small vibe spot at 2500-3000 and then smoothed out. The only thing I did in the service was loosen the clutch pressure bolts and retorque, seems an odd coincidence .... but I'll check it out, thanks!

Peanuts · 04-01-2012, 10:26 AM

Dont shoot me down, but are your final drive chain and sprockets in good condition?

crazybrit · 04-01-2012, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peanuts

Dont shoot me down, but are your final drive chain and sprockets in good condition?

Hi Peanuts. See first post: "Like 850tc the excessive vibration can be reproduced on the side-stand or moving. Clutch in/out, neutral/in-gear makes no difference which is why I was curious on the outer basket".

Apart from the new vibes above 4500rpm my bike is great, makes good power. Sounds really good. I've checked all the low hanging fruit. All this leaves me with is some kind of reciprocating mass vibration which is why I was asking about the clutch basket play.

I have a thread dedicated to what I've done to this point: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=697087
850tc has one also http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=604575 (he also discounts chain/sprockets on post #8)

If you have the patience to read through what's already been tried (sorry, my thread is a bit long & rambling

) then I'd really welcome suggestions on what could be wrong. I didn't have much hair left before this

Peanuts · 04-01-2012, 12:41 PM

Make a thicker washer ;)

crazybrit · 04-01-2012, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peanuts

Make a thicker washer ;)

Thanks! If it is the cause, it's a bit of a mystery as to why it started happening after the last service. The only thing I did was retorque the pressure plate bolts

BillyD · 04-01-2012, 02:18 PM

That's about how much mine goes in and out.

I would be more concerned if the ring gear piece moved that much.

Axial end play spec on most shafts, including the main shaft, is .004"(0.10mm) with a wear limit of 0.016".

I think that the fact your outer basket moves that much is pretty normal in and of itself.

braaap! · 04-02-2012, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyD

That's about how much mine goes in and out.

I would be more concerned if the ring gear piece moved that much.

Axial end play spec on most shafts, including the main shaft, is .004"(0.10mm) with a wear limit of 0.016".

I think that the fact your outer basket moves that much is pretty normal in and of itself.

I recently installed a new clutch plate kit... On final assembly, I too grabbed the outer basket and found a very similar amount of 'slop'... Seem to remember my 640ADV had similar basket 'slop' (technical huh?).

I'll run mine up on the side stand and see if the vibration feels / seems abnormal, then again, after a 640 the 950 has always felt smooth as silk :)

skidxr · 03-28-2013, 10:32 AM

Have you had any success in finding the cause of this vibration?

I have a similar vibration thing that I have traced to the clutch. With mine, if I put a very slight bit of pressure on the clutch lever it totally goes away. I have checked all the bolts in the clutch and are tight.

BigWan · 03-28-2013, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skidxr

I have a similar vibration thing that I have traced to the clutch. With mine, if I put a very slight bit of pressure on the clutch lever it totally goes away. I have checked all the bolts in the clutch and are tight.

I also had some vibes and noise coming from the clutch that went away when I pulled the clutch lever.
I replaced the large needle bearing for the clutch basket $42 and all is well.
My bike had 32k at the time.

Hope that helps.

stevodadevo · 03-28-2013, 12:46 PM

I pulled my clutch plates and springs out to check for wear. While I was in there I noticed the nut that holds the basket on was very loose. Like only on with a couple of threads.

I was having problems with the clutch being grabby and jerky when cold. After tightening the nut down, those problems seem to have gone away. Even with the nut tight, the bracketry is a little loose.

850tc · 03-29-2013, 02:08 AM

Hi. I did post an update on this some time last year. I changed the inner needle roller bearing and it made a noticeable difference - virtually back to how I remembered. There is still vibration in the 4500-5500rpm range, but from what I've read here, this is a characteristic of the bike and can be ridden around. It is also better after a carb sync. My bike has now done 46000kms and, dare I say it, is running great!
One thing I did notice which I haven't yet investigated is that there is noticeable wear to the outrigger bearing in the outer clutch case - whether this a cause or effect of something else I don't know. I can't find out how to post photos, otherwise I would! Cheers.

03-31-2012, 08:36 PM	#1
crazybrit ^OP Beastly Adventurer Joined: Mar 2006 Location: Portland, OR Oddometer: 8,066	Outer clutch basket play I'm trying to figure out the cause of the vibration problem on my 950. I did a service/farkling of the bike last winter and afterwards I noticed it was much more vibey above 4500 rpm. Having checked everything (really, see above thread ) today I pulled the clutch cover to have a look underneath. Should there be this amount of play in the outer clutch basket? I found a thread by Yardstick asking the same question. He posted his thread on page 2 of this other thread where 850tc is complaining about a very similar vibration problem to me. StevenD's comment seems to indicate that some axial play is normal. Like 850tc the excessive vibration can be reproduced on the side-stand or moving. Clutch in/out, neutral/in-gear makes no difference which is why I was curious on the outer basket. I don't have any free-play on the inner basket which I think indicates the nut is secure, looking at the repair manual I see there is supposedly a 30.3x50x2mm spacer washer behind the outer basket. I've never had the clutch apart, bike has 12k miles. Only thing I did at the last service was loosen and retorque the pressure plate bolts per-tsb. crazybrit screwed with this post 04-01-2012 at 08:55 AM

04-01-2012, 05:23 AM	#2
Gustavo.Ramos Gnarly Adventurer Joined: May 2008 Location: Accross the pond Oddometer: 427	Recently i had the 950 clutch out to take care of the oil pump pressure valve and i'm sure mine didn't had that kind of "slack". Take the clutch plates out untill you reach the big nut that secures the basket into the transmission shaft. This should be torked 130 Nm. In my 950 it come loose 2 times, one in the middle of the moroccan desert which meant a 5 hour wait for the pick up truck. When that nut comes loose it will prevent also the outter basket clutch plates to fully engage, thus the cluth will start slipping untill there won't be any transmission. The other effect is that the nut by moving outwards will have the big basket loose which might be the early stage of what is happening in your bike. __________________ Growing old is mandatory... growing up is optional! Raid de L'Amitié 2011 RR (link) 690R & 990Adv

04-01-2012, 02:18 PM	#9
BillyD Studly Adventurer Joined: Jun 2007 Location: San Mateo County Coast, CA Oddometer: 605	That's about how much mine goes in and out. I would be more concerned if the ring gear piece moved that much. Axial end play spec on most shafts, including the main shaft, is .004"(0.10mm) with a wear limit of 0.016". I think that the fact your outer basket moves that much is pretty normal in and of itself. __________________ Bill KTM '08 690 RFR, '08 990Adv S (carbs), '07 640Adv, '03 540EXC, Honda XR650R, Ducati 851, Moto Guzzi 850 Lemans & 2VT and Yamaha RD350.

03-28-2013, 10:32 AM	#11
skidxr Excuses Joined: Mar 2006 Location: Durango, Colorado Oddometer: 279	Have you had any success in finding the cause of this vibration? I have a similar vibration thing that I have traced to the clutch. With mine, if I put a very slight bit of pressure on the clutch lever it totally goes away. I have checked all the bolts in the clutch and are tight. __________________ ...

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04-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#3
Peanuts Beastly Adventurer Joined: Sep 2009 Location: UK Oddometer: 1,045	There is not 2mm of play there, so the washer is in place. Its just a KTM thing.... lots of the KTM motors do this ;) If the gap was too small you would get clutch drag as the inner and outer parts move together. I guess you could get a slightly thicker washer made to try, if its a success, get one made and case hardened so it lasts.

04-01-2012, 10:26 AM	#5
Peanuts Beastly Adventurer Joined: Sep 2009 Location: UK Oddometer: 1,045	Dont shoot me down, but are your final drive chain and sprockets in good condition?

04-01-2012, 12:41 PM	#7
Peanuts Beastly Adventurer Joined: Sep 2009 Location: UK Oddometer: 1,045	Make a thicker washer ;)

03-28-2013, 12:46 PM	#13
stevodadevo What happened? Joined: Apr 2010 Location: San Diego, CA Oddometer: 176	I pulled my clutch plates and springs out to check for wear. While I was in there I noticed the nut that holds the basket on was very loose. Like only on with a couple of threads. I was having problems with the clutch being grabby and jerky when cold. After tightening the nut down, those problems seem to have gone away. Even with the nut tight, the bracketry is a little loose.

03-29-2013, 02:08 AM	#14
850tc Adventurer Joined: Nov 2009 Location: SW France Oddometer: 35	Hi. I did post an update on this some time last year. I changed the inner needle roller bearing and it made a noticeable difference - virtually back to how I remembered. There is still vibration in the 4500-5500rpm range, but from what I've read here, this is a characteristic of the bike and can be ridden around. It is also better after a carb sync. My bike has now done 46000kms and, dare I say it, is running great! One thing I did notice which I haven't yet investigated is that there is noticeable wear to the outrigger bearing in the outer clutch case - whether this a cause or effect of something else I don't know. I can't find out how to post photos, otherwise I would! Cheers.