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Old 04-14-2012, 11:43 AM   #46
JRWooden
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Welllllllllllllll crap..............

I would have expected a modestly lower temperature if only as a result of the fact that you are now charging at a higher voltage and thus the I^2 * R heating of the stator would have been modestly less

As you say ... measurement error may be at play....

My potential supplier of other R/R seems to be having trouble locating a source.
It might be that Shindengen isn't much into non-OEM channels...
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Old 04-14-2012, 11:54 AM   #47
Hicks
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Guys when I look on the pics... I'd be a bit afraid of (our local) insurance companies.

The general rule is, that ANY non-homologated part can result in null or reduce insurance fulfillment in case of accident.

I don't know how is the situation in the U.S., but here ,, give them only slight chance to not pay everything.. and they will not.

---

the problem is that it's imho VISIBLY non-OEM :( looks like I'm stuck with original, periodically failing, stator + reg.
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Old 04-14-2012, 12:12 PM   #48
ebrabaek OP
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Tak skal du ha.....

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Old 04-14-2012, 12:15 PM   #49
ebrabaek OP
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Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
I would have expected a modestly lower temperature if only as a result of the fact that you are now charging at a higher voltage and thus the I^2 * R heating of the stator would have been modestly less

As you say ... measurement error may be at play....

My potential supplier of other R/R seems to be having trouble locating a source.
It might be that Shindengen isn't much into non-OEM channels...
Yeppers...... A source....predictable one that is.... told me that they are on baaaaaaaaaackorder..... Remember the tsunami...... The temperature is within 10 deg.....give and take... It was a bit warmer today....who knows.... I was afraid of even measuring it...since I am not trusting the results.

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Old 04-14-2012, 12:18 PM   #50
ebrabaek OP
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Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
Guys when I look on the pics... I'd be a bit afraid of (our local) insurance companies.

The general rule is, that ANY non-homologated part can result in null or reduce insurance fulfillment in case of accident.

I don't know how is the situation in the U.S., but here ,, give them only slight chance to not pay everything.. and they will not.

---

the problem is that it's imho VISIBLY non-OEM :( looks like I'm stuck with original, periodically failing, stator + reg.
Your Call Hicks.....

Erling
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Old 04-14-2012, 01:52 PM   #51
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Thanks Earling. Great write up. As you feared, the temp measurement was inconclusive. Thanks for trying though.

David
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Old 04-14-2012, 02:24 PM   #52
ebrabaek OP
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Thanks Earling. Great write up. As you feared, the temp measurement was inconclusive. Thanks for trying though.

David
Yeppers David.... At least my battery wont die from an undercharging.......Only time will tell how the stator behaves......

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Old 04-14-2012, 03:08 PM   #53
Hicks
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
Your Call Hicks.....

Erling
anyway good work... thx.
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Old 04-14-2012, 03:15 PM   #54
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anyway good work... thx.
Thanks Hicks......

Erling
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Old 04-14-2012, 04:12 PM   #55
JRWooden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
Guys when I look on the pics... I'd be a bit afraid of (our local) insurance companies.

The general rule is, that ANY non-homologated part can result in null or reduce insurance fulfillment in case of accident.

I don't know how is the situation in the U.S., but here ,, give them only slight chance to not pay everything.. and they will not.

---

the problem is that it's imho VISIBLY non-OEM :( looks like I'm stuck with original, periodically failing, stator + reg.
You might want to go with the xxx-SC part which would be considered homologated, will improve battery life and "might" improve stator life ..........
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Old 04-14-2012, 05:06 PM   #56
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Ok, mabe this has already been covered but looking online...

According to the MAX BMW parts fische the part # for F800GS RR is BWM PN: 61 31 2 346 550 and that is the same as on the F800R, F800S, F800ST and post 2000 F650GS's as well.

CapriMoto shows that the BMW 61-31-2-346-550 = Shindengen SH 532B-12. Per that site the part fits Aprilia Leonardo 250/300 ST 99-05, Motò 650, Pegaso 650/3/IE 96-04, BMW F 650 GS/Dakar/CS/ST/Strada/Funduro 93-07.

Poking around the interwebz it seems the Shindengen SH532B-12 is very common on motorcycles. Also found out that Shindengen MOSFET R/R model numbers start with FH and the the thyristor/silcon controlled rectifiers start with SH.

This write up was a really informative read and explains why the SH RR's eventually will have problems and are not as good as the FH/MOSFET RR's.
MOSFET Regulator/Rectifiers - The Why & The How


So now I understand why the FH0012AA/0020AA FOSFET units are better than the stock SH units.

I also figured something else out. I came accross this site:
SXelectronics out of greece makes a replacement unit for the F650. According to the site that unit is also the same unit as used on the Suzuki DL650 Vstrom, Bandit 250/400, LS 650 Savage, and SV650/1000, the Aprilia Pegasso 650 (same bike as the BMW F650funduro), Aprilia Scarabeo, and Cagiva Canyon and Raptor models.

Now by cross referencing those bikes with electrosport it looks like the elctrosport model that will fit and work on our bike should be Part #: ESR124. It won't be plug and play but it is spliceable and should have the right specs and mounting.
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:01 PM   #57
ebrabaek OP
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Originally Posted by Gangplank View Post
Ok, mabe this has already been covered but looking online...

According to the MAX BMW parts fische the part # for F800GS RR is BWM PN: 61 31 2 346 550 and that is the same as on the F800R, F800S, F800ST and post 2000 F650GS's as well.

CapriMoto shows that the BMW 61-31-2-346-550 = Shindengen SH 532B-12. Per that site the part fits Aprilia Leonardo 250/300 ST 99-05, Motò 650, Pegaso 650/3/IE 96-04, BMW F 650 GS/Dakar/CS/ST/Strada/Funduro 93-07.

Poking around the interwebz it seems the Shindengen SH532B-12 is very common on motorcycles. Also found out that Shindengen MOSFET R/R model numbers start with FH and the the thyristor/silcon controlled rectifiers start with SH.

This write up was a really informative read and explains why the SH RR's eventually will have problems and are not as good as the FH/MOSFET RR's.
MOSFET Regulator/Rectifiers - The Why & The How


So now I understand why the FH0012AA/0020AA FOSFET units are better than the stock SH units.

I also figured something else out. I came accross this site:
SXelectronics out of greece makes a replacement unit for the F650. According to the site that unit is also the same unit as used on the Suzuki DL650 Vstrom, Bandit 250/400, LS 650 Savage, and SV650/1000, the Aprilia Pegasso 650 (same bike as the BMW F650funduro), Aprilia Scarabeo, and Cagiva Canyon and Raptor models.

Now by cross referencing those bikes with electrosport it looks like the elctrosport model that will fit and work on our bike should be Part #: ESR124. It won't be plug and play but it is spliceable and should have the right specs and mounting.
Great research.....and nice addition to the thread........



Erling
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:17 PM   #58
WayneC1
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Nice mount for the new VR, sorry to be pedantic with the joins & crimps, 40 years of working with electronics does that

Re series pass VR's, the one's to look for are switch mode MOSFET. Dont know of any built for the bikes but that is what is on my radar

Modern MOSFET switching transistors are 99% efficient so when turned on there is very little power loss & heat generated, couple that with a switching regulator IC as we do in laptops and most switch mode power supplies for computing and other electronics you get regulation without excessive heat. There are MOSFET's built for the auto industry capable of up to 200 amp switching & they are used in control systems for the cars & I suspect some car VR's but I have yet to see any manufacturer specify them in an auto component description.

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Old 04-14-2012, 06:29 PM   #59
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1: The stator and stator cover temperature are almost totally disconnected. The stator has perhaps 5% surface connection. Iron to aluminum with varnish between.

Net result, with thermocouples glued to stator windings, running a garden hose on the stator cover full blast did not detectable cool the stator. Using a heat gun to warm the center of the cover up to 350 degrees seemed to heat the stator windings 5 degrees after 5 minutes, but thats so small that I can't be sure heating the cover caused it.

If you want meaningful readings, you need to glue thermocouples to the winding and test the bike with each R/R in exactly the same ambient and wind speed.

2: The article linked above about Mosfet V SCR, almost every single thing in it is wrong. It sounds good and would make sense if it were true, but it is not. SCR R/Rs are always more reliable if the components are spec'd the same.

Electrical components do age faster when hotter, but most stock SCR regulators, and particularly the ones BMW uses will last the lifetime of the bike.

SCR regulators do NOT become less accurate with aging, in fact, the components for sensing voltage are precisely the same with both types of shunt regulator only the mosfet type needs additional components to get the voltage to the switching gate up higher and this is a common cause of failure which an SCR based regulator does not even have.

Immaterial because the particular Mosfet regulator I recommended is robust with a hugely oversized FET and is just as reliable as the stock, but I can't read an article that flawed, or sit back while thousands read MOSFET cool-aid and not chime in.

Mosfet regulators produce more precise regulation out of the box because they are faster. This does not vary with age with the mosfet or SCR style. Mosfet regulators also run cooler so if it is mounted in a place that burns you, a FET is better.

Mosfets are more efficient at passing power, but in our application, when passing power they are deliberately wasting it, so FET regulators are no more efficient at passing charging current to the bike and battery. The rest of the components in both R/Rs are exactly the same, except for some additional components that the FET regulator needs for switching the FET gate which produces a measurable but tiny loss.

I linked to the particular Mosfet regulator because and only because I know it to be regulated where we want voltage to be AND because I know that particular unit to be reliable.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO across the board benefits from Mosfet versus SCR regulators other then tighter out of the box regulation and less heat if the regulator is mounted in a place that heat matters.

Mosfet for those in the electronics field stands for "Magically Obliterated Smoke and Fire Emitting Diode". SCR stands for "Super Cheap and Reliable".

Once again, the Mosfet R/R used in this mod IS robust and reliable, but this is absolutely not the case across the board for regulators.

Ok, blood pressure down slightly after typing that.

Yes ebrabaek, the doubled output wires are in parallel, and the shutdown current drain sequence you measured is normal across the entire K7X platform. Whats fun is on rare occasion, the ZFE hangs a a stage previous to final and drains the shit out of your battery :) It is rare in the latest ZFE firmware load, but still happens.

Outstanding thread my friend, though the all the pictures overran my buffer till I cleaned it

I don't know just how much this will cool the stator, but everything in me says "at least a little". Regulating at a higher voltage there will be more back EMF which will reduce current a little while keeping power about the same or even a little higher. Haven't tested it, but it really seems to me it HAS to cool the darn thing at least a little.

P.S. the stock regulator absolutely does use the frame as a heat sink with a very noticeable temperature rise of that area of the frame. Of the stock R/Rs I have seen fail, the R/R being loose or moved and zip tied were responsible for all but one failure. FYI whoever in the thread said it, I used heat sink grease as well when mounting my R/R :)

If you run the stock JRWooden is right for at least the stock regulator. I have seen one fried in the shop just from running a bike with it unbolted from the frame and it only took 15 minutes though it was a very hot day.

Mosfets can't take as much heat, so I am a little concerned that that carbon fiber bracket MAY cause rapid aging and early failure. Then again, that particular FET regulator is over built and robust and may take it for the life of the bike.
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:42 PM   #60
ebrabaek OP
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Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
Nice mount for the new VR, sorry to be pedantic with the joins & crimps, 40 years of working with electronics does that

Re series pass VR's, the one's to look for are switch mode MOSFET. Dont know of any built for the bikes but that is what is on my radar

Modern MOSFET switching transistors are 99% efficient so when turned on there is very little power loss & heat generated, couple that with a switching regulator IC as we do in laptops and most switch mode power supplies for computing and other electronics you get regulation without excessive heat. There are MOSFET's built for the auto industry capable of up to 200 amp switching & they are used in control systems for the cars & I suspect some car VR's but I have yet to see any manufacturer specify them in an auto component description.
Ha-ha...... No worries....

Erling
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