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Old 04-17-2012, 08:31 PM   #151
crankshaft
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Originally Posted by K2m View Post
I'm warning you guys you are moving in dangerous territory here. The inserts should not give this result. Readings like this from the rear are unreliable. Dyno results are not accurate. This is a racing motor like a WRC car. A wideband should be mounted properly for such a radical departure from normal.

Wait until Ken (H2W) comes up with a jetting package. He is a professional and will do it properly, and he has the right equipment and knows how to use it. Just be patient. Under normal conditions the exhaust changes on this bike do not affect the tuning (CV carbes).
Totally disagree with you, the exhaust makes a huge difference. If the engine is an air pump (basically) and running a pre-filter requires a jetting change, why wouldn't an exhaust? Air in (filter) air out (exhaust). Thankfully, I have a low mileage 950 motor sitting in my shop if things go boom

By the way, what oil do you like
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:55 PM   #152
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So far we are learning and moving forward with testing. Initial "best guess" was a smidge on the lean side of life, which could spell danger if pushed hard over a long period of time. Crankshaft has come back with details on his seat of pants, and then O2/dyno information to basically confirm that we need to put a bit more fuel to it, which should get it into a preferred AFR and optimal power delivery. The MX1000 will have two 950 SE running the CPR filter and jetting to support it. One of the bikes will have some system monitoring and logging so we can keep an eye on things. It is proving interesting that a seemingly subtle change of muffler insert or no insert (at least with this bike/exhaust system) resulted in a perceived significant change in AFR on the dyno. This was also "backed up" (?) prior to the wheel dyno by the butt dyno.

Lots of variables, which means we need to knock them down one at a time, but we are running out of time prior to the race.... , typical right?.... nothing quite like pulling a 37hr change/build right before leaving (did that once with the super truck, that was NO fun).. I exaggerate for this situation, but lots of changes getting ironed out in short order for sure.


For those who are asking for spec's, please understand that until the development testing has been completed it is just not wise to suggest anything. I know that I have absolutely no interest in melting down a engine.

I figure that a full 1-2 days of dyno and butt tuning, then real world testing/riding with telemetry will ultimately provide a excellent running LC8 with the CPR filter..... we need time to make that happen. I am sure that another skilled tuner and dyno operator would be able to do this as well, so if you would like to share your findings afterwards, I am sure we would all encourage you to do so.

It comes down to this; progress is being made with the two race bikes and I have hopes of getting the 950 ADV into the mix here soon so we can ensure the changes necessary are similar. We just received a box full of 950 and 990 filter assemblies so we are finally able to begin developing.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:30 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crankshaft View Post
Totally disagree with you, the exhaust makes a huge difference. If the engine is an air pump (basically) and running a pre-filter requires a jetting change, why wouldn't an exhaust? Air in (filter) air out (exhaust). Thankfully, I have a low mileage 950 motor sitting in my shop if things go boom

By the way, what oil do you like
I was not aiming that comment at you of course as you are the one making progress.

The CV carbes are different in the way they react with an air filter change. They are very sensitive here. I have had a few different configurations of exhaust and none required a jetting change. I have run a wideband mounted in the correct location, from new 2005. I have a lot of experience with widebands. When I fit a new sensor I send the unit to the manufacture to have it re-calibrated. I made the first pre-filter as we know it now. I got the idea from Mioni. Ken and I have some history together in tuning these things so I should know something about tuning this bike with CV's.

All I'm saying is putting those inserts in should not give that result so be careful. Something is not right. I'm happy Ken is involved. And I hope this works as It should make servicing easier......... But "CVs" run better with restriction

May I suggest try to tune it on the road first, this may be quicker. Then dyno to see you have all your horses. A wideband in the bum is better than no wideband at all
......... You are looking for 13.1-4:1 at WOT to be safe. If you are not getting this ..........throttle off

I wish you guys the best of luck in this race. I know only to well what it is like to have such a huge job on while running out of time before a race
Which oil is that.... engine oil?















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Old 04-18-2012, 12:39 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Head2Wind View Post
It is proving interesting that a seemingly subtle change of muffler insert or no insert (at least with this bike/exhaust system) resulted in a perceived significant change in AFR on the dyno. This was also "backed up" (?) prior to the wheel dyno by the butt dyno.
.
Extreme Lean maybe Ken.

Lean is very noticable through the throttle while riding

I could not get that result even with the 128 mains
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K2m screwed with this post 04-18-2012 at 01:05 AM
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:23 AM   #155
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I have followed every single post concerning jetting and I trust both Ken's and k2m's opinions as being the most informed and skilled individuals together with tahoecr on fueling matters in this forum. So I believe they both are right, however contradictory that might in regard to the opinions they express here.

What I am wondering in an effort to bridge these opinions, is whether (or not) large changes on the AFR because of changes on the exhaust side, are possible if the air-filter is very free flowing.
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Old 04-18-2012, 04:56 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by K2m View Post

I wish you guys the best of luck in this race. I know only to well what it is like to have such a huge job on while running out of time before a race
Which oil is that.... engine oil?

This isn't my first rodeo, I've been doing programable fuel injection systems on cars for over 10 years.....






That one was fun, 20V turbo with a Hybrid garret turbo running 18 psi


Ken is very knowledgable, that's why I contacted him. The key to being successful with any project is knowing when to ask for help an when you're out of your depth. I find it funny how everyone is bugging me for jetting specs and we've just started the process

The butt dyno was done last weekend and that's when I noticed the lean surge at part throttle with the insert out. When the insert was in, the lean surge went away and the power actually got better. The dyno proved why and it was the open exhaust. Ken and I decided to make a few tweaks to provide a little more margin in the fueling with the insert installed. Mike (locker43) is currently running the same filter with an open exhaust and is working on the jetting. He should be dyno testing his set up in a few days to see what's up.

The open air filter is going to really help these things breathe. Mike and I will have a great opportunity to do some serious back to back testing during the MX1000. Fuel economy, power and of course filter longevity. We'll be logging mileage, average speed and fuel consumption as a comparison. I'll also be monitoring temps under the tank in regards to ambient temps to see if heat shielding is important. I installed fire sleeve on all my fuel lines that are near the engine, which should help. This filter is a game changer, no question.

Can't say enough good about Ken and CJ, they've been a huge help. As far as jetting goes, Ken is the man.
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Old 04-19-2012, 04:07 AM   #157
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Air box

What kind of weight savings with this set up?
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:57 AM   #158
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...
Anyone who knows about what specific material the diaphragm is? EPDM? Nitrile?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPDM_rubber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrile_rubber
If so can someone google it and findout about deteriation of elasticity over time?
After some googling I tend to believe hardening (stiffening) by elastomers (rubber) is one common and unwanted issue. An example from http://www.rlhudson.com/O-Ring%20Boo...aterial12.html, tells about nitrile:

...Unfortunately, compounding ingredients and polymers that offer the best low temperature properties are usually adversely affected by high temperatures. A general-purpose compound is cured with sulfur, but as the ambient temperature in an application exceeds +225° F, free sulfur in the compound finds other unsaturated double bonds and forms additional crosslinks. This results in compression set and hardening of the compound. To improve high temperature properties.....
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Old 04-19-2012, 05:33 PM   #159
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anyone have part # for diaphram?

thanks...
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Old 04-19-2012, 06:45 PM   #160
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anyone have part # for diaphram?

thanks...
60031035000

I've got one in stock, more on order. I normally have a few here as last season it took about 4 weeks to get them from Austria when I needed one bad.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:28 PM   #161
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Extreme Lean maybe Ken.

Lean is very noticable through the throttle while riding

I could not get that result even with the 128 mains
Yes, proceeding with some caution for sure. Based upon the data gathered from the first run we bumped the mains up a size front/rear, slight change in IAJ (down a size) and upped the float height by about .5-.8mm. This bike is going to compete with the insert installed. The other bike is getting setup slightly richer on the mains and the IAJ because of a more open exhaust. We are getting close to understanding more about how this engine/carb combo responds to basically a full open intake system. Unlike the MotoHooligan airbox, this airfilter does not have a "lid"..... There is no plate effect to flow directly into the intake tract which is proving interesting . Looking forward to working with variable length velocity stacks to see where the best effective length is going to be
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:32 PM   #162
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What kind of weight savings with this set up?
1.5 lbs? not sure, will need to weight the OEM airbox assembly and the CPR to be sure
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:37 PM   #163
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CPR filter assembly: 1lb 3.3oz
OEM airbox assm w/filter-snorkle: 4lb 7.2oz
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Old 04-20-2012, 06:56 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Head2Wind View Post
CPR filter assembly: 1lb 3.3oz
OEM airbox assm w/filter-snorkle: 4lb 7.2oz
Thats a decent savings, more than I thought.
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:15 AM   #165
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Just got back from dyno run on SE number 2. Butt dyno was perfect, paper said AFR was right where Ken wanted. More open exhaust with fairly different settings and we seemed to end up close at the end. MX1000 will be a great side by side.
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