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Old 05-05-2012, 11:43 PM   #46
JerryH
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In AZ, most off road vehicles, including dirt bikes, quads, and UTVs can be made street legal, simply by adding a mirror, horn, headlight, tail light, brakelight, and license plate light. They do not need instruments or turn signals. The catch is they must pass the same emissions standards as factory street legal vehicles, which rules out late model 2 strokes. Now, ALL vehicles in the state of AZ come with titles, and after conversion, getting it through emissions, having it inspected, and getting insurance, you can exchange your OHV title for a street legal title. There is a reason why this is possible. Other than private land, almost every single trail in the state is considered a "road" and your OHV must be street legal to ride on it. Real non street legal OHVs have been pretty much relegated to OHV parks, where you still have to have an RV plate, and OHV sticker, and still pay to get in each time, or pay about $200 for a years pass, per vehicle. Most of these off road riding areas are on what is called "state trust land" I have yet to figure out exactly what that means, as the definition has some conflicting information. And you have to stay on trails. I know one rider who was fined $500 because he rode around a big mud puddle that was in the middle of the trail. The fine was later reduced, but he still had to pay.

As for the motorized bicycle/moped/motor driven cycle thing, motorized bicycles are covered by a fairly new law, and are treated pretty much the same as regular bicycles on the street and are allowed to use the bike lanes, but cannot use bike paths unless they are electric. A motorized bicycle typically consists of a Walmart bicycle with a Chinese "Grubee" engine kit installed on it, though other types of engines are also used. They must be 48cc or under, and you cannot exceed 20 mph (legally)

A "moped" is something you don't see very much. My 1977 Puch Maxi is considered a moped. Most mopeds are relics from the '70s, though at least one company still sells new ones here. They are a factory made motorized bike, must have functional pedals, an engine no larger than 49cc, and despite what the MVD says, may be legally operated up to 30 mph. They have special "moped" plates.

A "motor driven cycle" requires motorcycle everything, endorsement, insurance, registration, MC plates, etc. They basically include any size vehicle without pedals, up to 150cc. They are not freeway legal. My Yamaha Vino 125 and 149cc Genuine Stella fit in this category, though most cops consider 149cc to be freeway legal. They can still cite you for impeding traffic if you are going too slow. So do small displacement motorcycles under 150cc, like my former Kawasaki Eliminator 125, and the Sachs Madass 50 and 125.


Honda used to make a Metropolitan II, that was restricted to 25-30 mph, and it was classified as a moped in many states, but not AZ, because it lacked functional pedals. AZ's moped laws date back to the early '70s.
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Old 05-06-2012, 06:16 AM   #47
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MC endorsement is a good thing BUT it's NOT that easy. It a couple hundred bucks spent out the gate. You have to get your permit first $, then your MSF class $$$ IF you can get into one at all, if you can get it one but it's not local: $$. Now we are into it for $$$$$$ and not even sure IF she's going to dig street riding.

There are billions of people all over the world riding these things with no MC endorsement and they are doing fine.

I think that sitting in front of a line of traffic on a vehicle that you KNOW can't out-pace them is silly. Treat the giddy as a motorized bicycle and not a little motorcycle and things should be OK. Pop the cork on it if you want to swim with the sharks. De-restricted they should snap of the line pretty well and flow with traffic.

What I would LIKE is for this to be her Gateway Scoot into something bigger. One step at a time though...
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Old 05-06-2012, 06:48 AM   #48
thunderkat59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noreaster View Post
MC endorsement is a good thing BUT it's NOT that easy. It a couple hundred bucks spent out the gate. You have to get your permit first $, then your MSF class $$$ IF you can get into one at all, if you can get it one but it's not local: $$. Now we are into it for $$$$$$ and not even sure IF she's going to dig street riding.
Florida privatized part of their MC licensing process, and it was the same way.
It could be a real hardship to try to get an endorsement for a few reasons
ranging from time to monetary.

Ive been riding for 38 years and never had an MC endorsement.
Keep saying I'll get one, but somehow another year goes by.
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Old 05-06-2012, 07:03 AM   #49
tortoise2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noreaster View Post
MC endorsement is a good thing BUT it's NOT that easy.
Like most states, doesn't appear to be all that complicated . . just pass the written test and drive around a few cones. Per Mass RMV . . .



"If you currently hold a valid Massachusetts license of any class, you may add a motorcycle endorsement if you meet the following requirements:
  • Have a valid Massachusetts license.
  • Have a valid Class M Permit.
  • Pass the motorcycle road test, or
  • Complete the Motorcycle Rider Education Training Course. In order to be exempt from the RMV road test, you must present your course certificate to the RMV within 90 days of completing the program.
  • Surrender your license and permit and pay a $15.00 fee to add the motorcycle endorsement and receive a new license."
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Old 05-06-2012, 08:15 AM   #50
JerryH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tortoise2 View Post
Like most states, doesn't appear to be all that complicated . . just pass the written test and drive around a few cones. Per Mass RMV . . .



"If you currently hold a valid Massachusetts license of any class, you may add a motorcycle endorsement if you meet the following requirements:
  • Have a valid Massachusetts license.
  • Have a valid Class M Permit.
  • Pass the motorcycle road test, or
  • Complete the Motorcycle Rider Education Training Course. In order to be exempt from the RMV road test, you must present your course certificate to the RMV within 90 days of completing the program.
  • Surrender your license and permit and pay a $15.00 fee to add the motorcycle endorsement and receive a new license."

It can certainly be done that way, even in AZ, and for cheap. In fact, here you can get a 6 month permit for $15, that allows local riding during the daytime with no passenger. All that takes is a written test. Then you get the full endorsement by completing the riding test, which is basically riding around some cones in a parking lot, and paying another $20. This shows them that you have the very basic skills to control a motorcycle, in a parking lot. It says nothing about your ability to deal with traffic on a machine that nobody sees. BTW, a drivers license and motorcycle endorsement last until you are age 65, no matter what your age is when you get it. No renewal fees Unless you lose your license due to a DUI or too many tickets.


I see the MSF course for beginning riders the same way as helmet and gear. It is some training and education that can save your hide when you go out and ride in traffic. Helmets, jackets, gloves, boots, etc. are not cheap either, but I wouldn't ride without them.

As for riding a 50cc scooter in traffic, from someone who has done it, I see it as attempted suicide. Which is why I quit doing it. It's not so much the 40 mph top speed, as it is the sloooooow acceleration. Even I can outrun one from 0-20 on a bicycle. People around here like to floor it away from a stoplight, and thinking you are on a motorcycle (very few drivers know the difference between a 50cc scooter and a Hayabusa) they expect you to rocket away when the light changes. They cannot be ridden to the far right, or in bike lanes like bikes with an engine and pedals. So you have nowhere to go. About the only places they can be safely ridden is in residential areas, and on the shoulders of rural country roads. Even then I suggest a bright colored helmet, orange vest, and a slow moving vehicle triangle on the back. You might as well be riding a lawn tractor.
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I won't spend more on a bike than I think it's worth, but if it's a good deal, I don't seem to have a problem buying bikes I don't need.
2002 Vulcan 750, 2013 Royal Enfield B5
2001 XT225, 2009 Genuine Stella
1980 Puch moped
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Old 05-06-2012, 10:17 AM   #51
savit260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noreaster View Post
MC endorsement is a good thing BUT it's NOT that easy. It a couple hundred bucks spent out the gate. You have to get your permit first $, then your MSF class $$$ IF you can get into one at all, if you can get it one but it's not local: $$. Now we are into it for $$$$$$ and not even sure IF she's going to dig street riding.

There are billions of people all over the world riding these things with no MC endorsement and they are doing fine.

I think that sitting in front of a line of traffic on a vehicle that you KNOW can't out-pace them is silly. Treat the giddy as a motorized bicycle and not a little motorcycle and things should be OK. Pop the cork on it if you want to swim with the sharks. De-restricted they should snap of the line pretty well and flow with traffic.

What I would LIKE is for this to be her Gateway Scoot into something bigger. One step at a time though...
Now I got my motorcycle licence a long time ago in Ma.... before they had "safe rider courses". It wasn't difficult or expensive.

Get the little book from the registry and read it through a few times. Brush up on your basic traffic laws then take the permit test. Was 10 or 20 easy questions back then. Prob. not much different now. I think you only have to get 70% correct. (looked it up... 25 questions, you have to get 18 correct)

Pass the test and get the learners permit. Get some practice in an empty lot, and then on the street riding. Learn to do circles and figure 8's with out putting your feet down. You've got a good amount of time to figure all that stuff out on the permit.

Go take the test. I took mine in Haverhill Ma where they had me do 3 circles to the right, 3 to the left, and 3 figure 8's. Then they watch you ride around the block. That's it. No big money spent. Easy as can be. Would have been worlds easier to do on a scooter vs. a street bike, and it wasn't even hard at that.

If she isn't into street riding... you'll likely know that long before you go for the actual licencing test, so all you're out it the cost of the learners permit. The permit is $30 and it's good for two years.
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Old 05-06-2012, 10:31 AM   #52
savit260
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Quick funny story about getting my Mass motorcycle licence. Summer of 1985....ride in the POURING rain to Haverhill to take the test with my good friend. We both were going for our licences that day. I'm on an '81 Suzuki GS250T and he's on a tricked out 79 Yamaha RD400F Daytona Special.. Kick start 2 Stroke beastie. The cop comes out and we're all pretty much soaked from the rain. Asks to see our inspection stickers.... then starts asking me questions (an oral exam is NOT supposed to be part of the road test.)

Cop: So.... what's the best way to prevent hydroplaning ?

Me: Don't ride when the road is wet.

Cop: Good answer... now how about another way?

Me: Keep speeds down under 50-55 mph, as hydroplaning starts around there and increases with speed.

(Keep in mind , I'm a SIXTEEN year old kid at this point, and shitting bricks thinking he's going to fail me)

Cop: Another good answer... How about another?

Me: Oh, come on... you're killin' me here... those are good answers.....No one said anything about an oral exam... what more do you want?

Cop: How about getting a new back tire... that thing is bald as a cue ball !!!! (laughing at me while he's pointing at my tire)

At this point my nerves are getting frazzled, and he tells my friend to start his bike and do his circles and figure 8's. He kicks over the Two stroker with a big cloud of blue smoke and starts doing cirlcles.

The eye roll from the Cop when that overgrown chainsaw kicked over was priceless.

We both past the test.
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Old 05-06-2012, 02:05 PM   #53
Noreaster OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tortoise2 View Post
Like most states, doesn't appear to be all that complicated . . just pass the written test and drive around a few cones. Per Mass RMV . . .



"If you currently hold a valid Massachusetts license of any class, you may add a motorcycle endorsement if you meet the following requirements:
  • Have a valid Massachusetts license.
  • Have a valid Class M Permit.
  • Pass the motorcycle road test, or
  • Complete the Motorcycle Rider Education Training Course. In order to be exempt from the RMV road test, you must present your course certificate to the RMV within 90 days of completing the program.
  • Surrender your license and permit and pay a $15.00 fee to add the motorcycle endorsement and receive a new license."
There is NO science behind this comment at all other than "that's just the way that it is" BUT in the real world, the success rate for people passing the road test without MSF is like, zero(ish).
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Old 05-06-2012, 05:02 PM   #54
savit260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noreaster View Post
There is NO science behind this comment at all other than "that's just the way that it is" BUT in the real world, the success rate for people passing the road test without MSF is like, zero(ish).
Note that it continues on to say . In order to be exempt from the RMV road test

The road test was...
Three circles right, three circles left, three figure eights, drive around the block.

It's a very simple test to pass. I doubt it's changed any since I took the test. It's not like the cop is going to sit on the back of the bike, and make you ride him around.
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Old 05-06-2012, 05:35 PM   #55
bbishoppcm
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In NH, you are allowed ONE chance per lifetime to obtain your MC endorsement without attending the state-run class. Basically, pay $30 for the learner's permit and ride for one month (cannot ride at dusk or out of state, otherwise, unrestricted). Once you get the hang of it, you can then take the written test; if you pass (and you'd have to be a right moron to fail), you can then take the driving test. In order to fail the driving test (you get three tries), you must have a blood alcohol content of 1.0 or greater. However, if you manage to fail the driving test three times, you must take the state riders' course. Seriously, it's that easy (and I think the entire ordeal cost me around $75 or so). I took my test on an Elite 150, which means I can run over to the HD dealer and ride home on an Electraglide if I so choose to. God bless NH.
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:49 AM   #56
JerryH
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I don't know why I did it (probably the $1869 OTD price) but I bought another 50cc scooter. I already know it will probably not be any good in town (but that remains to be seen) my main reason for buying it besides the price was to ride on the thousands of miles of rural roads in southern AZ and NM. You can make a several day adventure out of a fairly short trip at 40 mph. I am picking it up on Tuesday. It is a brand new just out of the crate Piaggio Fly 50. I believe this to be a far better scooter than the Metropolitan, and I'm getting it OTD for less than MSRP on the Met. I'm on the heavy side. The Met has a max load capacity of 274 pounds. The Fly 50 has a max load capacity of 460 pounds. Wow, what a difference!!. Gives me plenty of safety margin. Not only will it safely carry me, but everything I can manage to load on it. It also has 2 HP more than the Met, which is almost twice as much, And it is physically larger, with 12" tires. I fit on it just fine. It also has a much larger gas tank, with 60 miles more range than the Met. I have yet to ride it, but I have been told it has much better acceleration than the Met, and will cruise in the mid to high 40s. I will report back after some experience with it, but this looks like a real Met killer. One downside to the Met and Fly is that they are both made in China. So the Honda is not Japanese, and the Piaggio is not Italian, despite the names.
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I won't spend more on a bike than I think it's worth, but if it's a good deal, I don't seem to have a problem buying bikes I don't need.
2002 Vulcan 750, 2013 Royal Enfield B5
2001 XT225, 2009 Genuine Stella
1980 Puch moped
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:10 AM   #57
tortoise2
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Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
The Fly 50 has a max load capacity of 460 pounds.
Wonder how Piaggio determines that . . the Fly 50 4V has only one rear shock? Even some of the "transport configured" cheap China scoots have two rear shocks.

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Old 06-26-2012, 01:36 PM   #58
JerryH
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Just picked it up. It definitely feels peppier than the Met, and is also more substantial feeling. Will have to break it in to see how fast it goes, but here is where I got the load capacity from. Dealer says it's correct.

http://dealers.piaggiousa.com/Extran...09_January.pdf
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I won't spend more on a bike than I think it's worth, but if it's a good deal, I don't seem to have a problem buying bikes I don't need.
2002 Vulcan 750, 2013 Royal Enfield B5
2001 XT225, 2009 Genuine Stella
1980 Puch moped
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