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Old 05-13-2012, 06:07 AM   #61
njd
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There is just as much evidence against the theory of global warming as there is for.

Which makes this thread a complete waste of everyone's fucking time. So shut up and go fucking ride before the sun explodes and kills us all.
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Old 05-13-2012, 07:00 AM   #62
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I don't remember who made the solar panels I bought in the 60s but I do remember I bought them at an electronics shop. Look up the history of photovoltaics and you'll be able to verify the photovoltaic effect was discovered in 1839. "The photovoltaic effect was first observed by Alexandre-Edmond Becquerel in 1839." Here's a link for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics

My array consists of 29 modules and puts out about 100 amps at 15 volts in full sun. I live in Oregon as you would see if you looked to the left of my posts.

As I posted before, there are 10 golf car batteries. The house and shop are all 110 volts supplied by 1000 watt and 3000 watt inverters.

Since I bought my panels used I didn't get a tax break on them but did get a nice tax break (state) on my solar water heater.

All my PV panels as well as the solar water heater are on the roof and I have never cleaned them. Any dust that accumulates during the summer isn't a problem because there is so much extra power. Fall rain washes them off so they're clean during the winter.

A little research from reputable sources is all it would take for you to understand how well solar power works.




Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
You think I'm parroting some website with Talking Points, like leftist idiots do? I LIVED through the "energy crisis" of the 1970s. I remember the "targeted tax breaks" for people who bought "alternate energy." At the time my old man had a summer home; he kept some heat on inside it in the winter. He looked into solar panels; and saw a payback, even with the tax breaks, as somewhere between the next millenium and "never."

Solar panels simply didn't exist prior to the 1970s, as far as I know. You had some ten years earlier? Who made them?





How much power do you get out of them?

How do you STORE this power? What form of power do you USE? Twelve volts DC? ...I guess that would be convenient; that's what your camper-home was wired for.

Where do you do this? The Mojave Desert? You know, of course, in most places in the nation there isn't enough sunlight, strong enough or long enough, to make even modern solar panels practical.

That's WHY THEY'RE NOT USED HERE. Except, of course, in government buildings and schools, where costs don't count - only ideology.



Now I KNOW you're full of excrement.

Cleaned only by rain? Ever see a greenhouse? An old-style one; with the glass panes in the roof instead of the corrugated fiberglass panels.

That glass gets FILTHY. For that matter, even clear skylights get filthy. NO place in this world is free of dust or dust borne by rain.

From what I've heard on public discussions, keeping rooftop panels clean is a big maintenance job.
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Old 05-13-2012, 11:59 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
You think I'm parroting some website with Talking Points, like leftist idiots do? I LIVED through the "energy crisis" of the 1970s. I remember the "targeted tax breaks" for people who bought "alternate energy." At the time my old man had a summer home; he kept some heat on inside it in the winter. He looked into solar panels; and saw a payback, even with the tax breaks, as somewhere between the next millenium and "never."

Solar panels simply didn't exist prior to the 1970s, as far as I know. You had some ten years earlier? Who made them?



How much power do you get out of them?

How do you STORE this power? What form of power do you USE? Twelve volts DC? ...I guess that would be convenient; that's what your camper-home was wired for.

Where do you do this? The Mojave Desert? You know, of course, in most places in the nation there isn't enough sunlight, strong enough or long enough, to make even modern solar panels practical.

That's WHY THEY'RE NOT USED HERE. Except, of course, in government buildings and schools, where costs don't count - only ideology.



Now I KNOW you're full of excrement.

Cleaned only by rain? Ever see a greenhouse? An old-style one; with the glass panes in the roof instead of the corrugated fiberglass panels.

That glass gets FILTHY. For that matter, even clear skylights get filthy. NO place in this world is free of dust or dust borne by rain.

From what I've heard on public discussions, keeping rooftop panels clean is a big maintenance job.


Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics

Photovoltaics


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Photovoltaics (PV) is a method of generating electrical power by converting solar radiation into direct current electricity using semiconductors that exhibit the photovoltaic effect. Photovoltaic power generation employs solar panels composed of a number of solar cells containing a photovoltaic material. Materials presently used for photovoltaics include monocrystalline silicon, polycrystalline silicon, amorphous silicon, cadmium telluride, and copper indium gallium selenide/sulfide.[1] Due to the growing demand for renewable energy sources, the manufacturing of solar cells and photovoltaic arrays has advanced considerably in recent years.[2][3][4]

Solar photovoltaics is growing rapidly, albeit from a small base, to a total global capacity of 67,400 megawatts (MW) at the end of 2011, representing 0.5% of worldwide electricity demand.[5] The total power output of the world’s PV capacity run over a calendar year is equal to some 80 billion kWh of electricity. This is sufficient to cover the annual power supply needs of over 20 million households in the world.[5] More than 100 countries use solar PV.[6] Installations may be ground-mounted (and sometimes integrated with farming and grazing)[7] or built into the roof or walls of a building (building-integrated photovoltaics).

Driven by advances in technology and increases in manufacturing scale and sophistication, the cost of photovoltaics has declined steadily since the first solar cells were manufactured[8] and the levelised cost of electricity (LCOE) from PV is competitive with conventional electricity sources in an expanding list of geographic regions.[9] Net metering and financial incentives, such as preferential feed-in tariffs for solar-generated electricity, have supported solar PV installations in many countries.[10] With current technology, photovoltaics recoup the energy needed to manufacture them in 1 to 4 years.[11]



Main article: Solar cell

Photovoltaics are best known as a method for generating electric power by using solar cells to convert energy from the sun into a flow of electrons. The photovoltaic effect refers to photons of light exciting electrons into a higher state of energy, allowing them to act as charge carriers for an electric current. The photovoltaic effect was first observed by Alexandre-Edmond Becquerel in 1839.[13][14] The term photovoltaic denotes the unbiased operating mode of a photodiode in which current through the device is entirely due to the transduced light energy. Virtually all photovoltaic devices are some type of photodiode.

Solar cells produce direct current electricity from sun light, which can be used to power equipment or to recharge a battery. The first practical application of photovoltaics was to power orbiting satellites and other spacecraft, but today the majority of photovoltaic modules are used for grid connected power generation. In this case an inverter is required to convert the DC to AC. There is a smaller market for off-grid power for remote dwellings, boats, recreational vehicles, electric cars, roadside emergency telephones, remote sensing, and cathodic protection of pipelines.

Photovoltaic power generation employs solar panels composed of a number of solar cells containing a photovoltaic material. Materials presently used for photovoltaics include monocrystalline silicon, polycrystalline silicon, amorphous silicon, cadmium telluride, and copper indium gallium selenide/sulfide.[1] Due to the growing demand for renewable energy sources, the manufacturing of solar cells and photovoltaic arrays has advanced considerably in recent years.[2][3][4]

Cells require protection from the environment and are usually packaged tightly behind a glass sheet. When more power is required than a single cell can deliver, cells are electrically connected together to form photovoltaic modules, or solar panels. A single module is enough to power an emergency telephone, but for a house or a power plant the modules must be arranged in multiples as arrays.

A significant market has emerged in off-grid locations for solar-power-charged storage-battery based solutions. These often provide the only electricity available.[15] The first commercial installation of this kind was in 1966 on Ogami Island in Japan to transition Ogami Lighthouse from gas torch to fully self-sufficient electrical power.

Due to the growing demand for renewable energy sources, the manufacture of solar cells and photovoltaic arrays has advanced dramatically in recent years.[2][3][4]

Solar photovoltaics is growing rapidly, albeit from a small base, to a total global capacity of 67,400 megawatts (MW) at the end of 2011, representing 0.5% of worldwide electricity demand.[5] The total power output of the world’s PV capacity run over a calendar year is equal to some 80 billion kWh of electricity. This is sufficient to cover the annual power supply needs of over 20 million households in the world.[5] More than 100 countries use solar PV.[6] World solar PV capacity (grid-connected) was 7.6 GW in 2007, 16 GW in 2008, 23 GW in 2009, and 40 GW in 2010.[16][17][18] More than 100 countries use solar PV.[6] Installations may be ground-mounted (and sometimes integrated with farming and grazing)[7] or built into the roof or walls of a building (building-integrated photovoltaics).

Photovoltaic power capacity is measured as maximum power output under standardized test conditions (STC) in "Wp" (Watts peak).[19] The actual power output at a particular point in time may be less than or greater than this standardized, or "rated," value, depending on geographical location, time of day, weather conditions, and other factors.[20] Solar photovoltaic array capacity factors are typically under 25%, which is lower than many other industrial sources of electricity.[21]

The EPIA/Greenpeace Advanced Scenario shows that by the year 2030, PV systems could be generating approximately 1.8 TW of electricity around the world. This means that, assuming a serious commitment is made to energy efficiency, enough solar power would be produced globally in twenty-five years’ time to satisfy the electricity needs of almost 14% of the world’s population.[22]

Current developments

Germany is the current leader in the use of photovoltaics, even though it has lower insolation levels than some other parts of Europe.

Photovoltaic panels based on crystalline silicon modules are encountering competition in the market by panels that employ thin-film solar cells (CdTe[23] CIGS,[24] amorphous Si,[25] microcrystalline Si), which had been rapidly evolving and are expected to account for 31 percent of the global installed power by 2013.[26] However, precipitous drops in prices for polysilicon and their panels in late 2011 have caused some thin-film makers to exit the market and others to experience severely squeezed profits.[27] Other developments include casting wafers instead of sawing,[28] concentrator modules, 'Sliver' cells, and continuous printing processes.

The San Jose-based company Sunpower produces cells that have an energy conversion ratio of 19.5%, well above the market average of 12–18%.[29] The most efficient solar cell so far is a multi-junction concentrator solar cell with an efficiency of 43.5%[30] produced by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in April 2011. The highest efficiencies achieved without concentration include Sharp Corporation at 35.8% using a proprietary triple-junction manufacturing technology in 2009,[31] and Boeing Spectrolab (40.7% also using a triple-layer design). A March 2010 experimental demonstration of a design by a Caltech group led by Harry Atwater which has an absorption efficiency of 85% in sunlight and 95% at certain wavelengths is claimed to have near perfect quantum efficiency.[32] However, absorption efficiency should not be confused with the sunlight-to-electricity conversion efficiency.
So, just what is your point other than to counter science with political ideology?

BTW, you might look up the term "inverter".
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Old 05-13-2012, 12:48 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Ken OBSC View Post




So, just what is your point other than to counter science with political ideology?

BTW, you might look up the term "inverter".
I know what an "inverter" is. I have several. Powered my freezer off it the last time the power was out for a few days.

I also know enough about solar cells to know they ain't gonna work, without breakthroughs that haven't happened and probably will never. Mostly because of storage needs, as well as the difficulty of making one work in winter months when there's little direct sun and it's weak and low in the horizon.

But...you're never going to be convinced; so I won't waste my time putting out direct links. You'd just discount them anyway; they don't fit your views.

Somehow, though...those cheap, efficient solar panels just don't sell. Just don't make it to the catalogs and stores.

Maybe...ConEdison bought up the patents? They've got them in a locked room, right alongside the 100-mpg carburetor.

Believe what you want.
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Old 05-13-2012, 12:49 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by njd View Post
There is just as much evidence against the theory of global warming as there is for.

Which makes this thread a complete waste of everyone's fucking time. So shut up and go fucking ride before the sun explodes and kills us all.
That's the wisest insight anyone's posted on this thread.

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Old 05-13-2012, 07:51 PM   #66
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You'd not be seeing the raging bushfires with your head in the sand, but just the same you'd be getting a mighty singed bum!

Hotter Summer Days, More Fires Forecast for Australia
SYDNEY, Australia, January 14, 2004 (ENS)

Its happened in the past (apparently) -
Dinosaur Farts Caused Their Own Extinction


- that living things can affect their own environment. Somehow, I get the picture that man's activities have more potential in this regard than large plant-eating sauropods. I mean those hadrosaurs were hardly clear-felling every forest, making dust bowls, over-laying concrete & asphalt on top of grasslands, daming rivers, drying up inland seas, etc.

Monbiot's royal flush: Top 10 climate change deniers


Quote:
She has refused to classify the polar bear as an endangered species on the grounds that the sea ice is here to stay, but is making plans for opening up the Arctic Sea to oil drilling, on the grounds that the ice is due to disappear. Could her ambivalence towards climate change have anything to do with the fact that Alaska is a major oil state?
Good company to keep?
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Old 05-13-2012, 08:11 PM   #67
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While the Western World dillies and argues vehicle fuel consumption, and fuel subsidies, there are those in the Third World doing something about non-grid, non-refinery, vehicle power:

A scooter powered by sun and wind

Quote:
Four engineering students—Emmanuel Roy, Jinu U V, Joel Tomy Prince and Rahul Radhakrishnan—from Vins Christian College of Engineering, Thirunelveli, have developed a scooter which uses a solar panel that increases the battery capacity by 30 percent.The normal TVS scooter has a solar panel attached to its backside. “Hybrid vehicles generally uses two or more distinct power sources to move the vehicle and in our project it’s solar energy and wind energy,” says Emmanuel Roy.
Not strictly alone in that though - there are a few in the West doing just this sort of project (and carrying that on for seven years or more):

How to convert an electric scooter to a solar scooter

By Mike Hanlon
22:00 August 17, 2005






Plans for

Don's Solar Scooter

Quote:
NEW April 2012:
The scooter still flying...returned to Earth Day 2012 At University of Michigan, Flint. Scooter a hit again. Kind of humbling that the interest is still strong. Will be on the local TV 25 news in May. They are doing an ECO Fuel Story about people doing things to avoid purchasing gasoline.

The scooter survived another winter outside. I took off the rear view mirrors and covered Scooter with plastic except for the solar panels this year.
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Old 05-13-2012, 10:33 PM   #68
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That horse is just MURDER on the environment!

First...it's not an indigenous species to North America. It's disrupting the FOOD CHAIN!

Then...all that methane...all that grass consumption...it's not NATURAL! it's going to DESTROY THE GRASSLANDS!

And all this...because some people are just too LAZY to WALK!


I share your reaction to the prospect of $15/gallon gasoline. There are two troubles with our reasoning, though: First, the direct cost of transportation, what we individually pay, is the smaller cost. The cost of getting our Cheerios to market, and getting our widgets that we build, to customers...that's the greater cost. Hits everyone, even if you live in a dormitory on the factory site.

Second...seems the Really Bright Boys in Washington...are going to make GASOLINE UNUSABLE. How?...by mandating so much ETHANOL in it, that our bikes and cars won't WORK hardly at all on the rotgut slop! E15 is coming, fast...and scooters won't do well with it. Nor regular bikes. Nor cars...even the few marked "E85" very seldom actually USE E85. That stuff is BAD NOOZE; absorbing water and attacking rubber.

No...no matter how independent we try to be...we're all at the mercy of society; government.
Seriously? You can't never say a horse is no worse on the envirement than a car! And yes, my fat ass is sure as hell to lazy to walk! I'd ride a tricycle before I walk! But I avoid a bicycle at ALL costs as well.

Yea, if gases goes up to $15 or so, then I's gonna just keep to 2 wheelers. I'd only drive the truck for a reason, not for no reason no more. If it gets WAY over that I'd have to go to a damn ranger or something. But hopefully not no time soon! Yea I agree with you on the processing on the gas.


And they's gonna make worse gas? FUCK! That piss me off! Is it that colored man in washington or what doing all this?

Whoevers reaspondsable should be beaten! I know they gas nowadays is bad compared to back then. I herd that like our old 70s and 80s motors ain't quite as happy with the gas as it is now cause of something like this?



Wait now I's gone in Wikipedia and it says that there E85 is maid by corn or some bullshit? So its be used again and ain't using oil? While that wouldn't be bad for a new cars, it ain't no good for no old cars. IF they's gonna make it the only fuel, well fuck them!
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Old 05-14-2012, 07:07 AM   #69
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Good company to keep?
Who...you?

Naw.

Coincidences are funny things. This weekend I was reading an opinion column by Dr. Thomas Sowell; who was talking about codewords. He has a yiddish word for it which I can't remember how to spell; basically, he was describing how certain in-vogue phrases, like "Save The Planet" or "Low Carbon Footprint" or "Sustainable Growth" were in fact shorthand advertisements, codewords, for "I'm on the correct side of things politically."

This shows it. I don't know what a former governor of Alaska has to do with whether we should stop using oil, which is useless for anything else, and start burning corn-squeezings, which could more easily be used as FOODSTUFFS.

What your post shows is that you like to let others do the thinking and then just sign on with a "Hear, HEAR!!" cry of approval. While giving what they babble, NO logical examination.
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Old 05-14-2012, 07:09 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by vortexau View Post
While the Western World dillies and argues vehicle fuel consumption, and fuel subsidies, there are those in the Third World doing something about non-grid, non-refinery, vehicle power:

A scooter powered by sun and wind

Not strictly alone in that though - there are a few in the West doing just this sort of project (and carrying that on for seven years or more):

How to convert an electric scooter to a solar scooter

By Mike Hanlon
22:00 August 17, 2005






Plans for

Don's Solar Scooter
How much did all that idiot junk cost?

Compared to three gallons of gasoline, which would be selling at two dollars a gallon if we'd go use our own crude for it.

Sometimes, "possible" and "practical" are two completely different things.
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Old 05-14-2012, 02:06 PM   #71
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I would like to see where you get your information on solar energy. Fox news? Rush Limbaugh? Heck, if the source is scientifically reputable you might actually convince someone of the validity of your opinion.




Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
I know what an "inverter" is. I have several. Powered my freezer off it the last time the power was out for a few days.

I also know enough about solar cells to know they ain't gonna work, without breakthroughs that haven't happened and probably will never. Mostly because of storage needs, as well as the difficulty of making one work in winter months when there's little direct sun and it's weak and low in the horizon.

But...you're never going to be convinced; so I won't waste my time putting out direct links. You'd just discount them anyway; they don't fit your views.

Somehow, though...those cheap, efficient solar panels just don't sell. Just don't make it to the catalogs and stores.

Maybe...ConEdison bought up the patents? They've got them in a locked room, right alongside the 100-mpg carburetor.

Believe what you want.
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Old 05-14-2012, 02:19 PM   #72
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Actually the polar bears are not endangered. There are many more than there were in the 1960s.
Even the pictures they show on TV have been so closely cropped, you can't really tell anything from them.
One example showed a polar bear on an ice floe that looked like he was in the middle of the ocean and all alone. When the full picture was shown, he was maybe a few hundred feet off land, and there was a whole family of them romping around.

The old saying: Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear has become outdated.
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Old 05-14-2012, 05:58 PM   #73
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I hope this makes everyone happy.

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Old 05-14-2012, 09:35 PM   #74
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Edited out.

I jumped the gun...mea culpa...
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CaseyJones screwed with this post 05-14-2012 at 09:55 PM
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:51 PM   #75
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Later, you'll get to save it MORE - when they take your cycles away as "recreational discretionary particulate emitters."

You can save ALL KINDS of oxygen...by WALKING.
Whoever does that shall be shot! I say to all this bullshit!

I can breath just fine. And we's been a driven V8s for a long time. Cars before the 90s there's not no Cadylitick Converters. They's been a driven since the long time.
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