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Old 05-24-2012, 05:26 PM   #16
ttpete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPete View Post
Find someone in your area that does EDM bolt removal.
http://www.portableedm.com/
This.

This scenario is one of the most common categories of failed attempts on all of the mechanical forums I've seen online. There has to be a special place in hell for the nitwit who designed the spiral screw extractor. How anyone could ever expect that a tapered brittle glass hard extractor could remove a seized bolt from a blind hole is completely beyond me.

The OP was hosed from the start. If a bolt is seized so bad that it twists off, nothing short of drilling out or EDM is going to reliably remove it.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:45 PM   #17
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I am a turbine millwright and have removed many broken bolts in everything from out board engines to steam turbines. you have only a few options. One is BTR-10 broken tap remover. It is a chemical compound that is diluted with warm water. It will eat the broken bolt and easy out. It only works when a bolt or tap is broken in a no ferous metal like aluminum and brass. It is hard to use and slow. You must get a center hole in the bolt for it to work very well. The way I would do it and have done it many times is to use a die grinder with a 1/8 dia. carbide burr. Grind out the center and work your way out untill you see the thread lines and if your good you can pull the threads out like a spring. On small bolts 1/4 in and smaller this ussually can not be done very easy. Those I grind out completly and retap with a heli coil. You can get a 90 degree die grinder pritty cheap at harbor freight for $20 or so. Then get a small carbide burr preferably with about a 3 - 4 in shank so you can see without the grinder in the way. Use a bright light to see what you are doing.

FYI ; Get single cut burrs. they will not grab on you and go wild like a double cut burr will. One of the biggest mistakes most people make is to use a double cut burr. Double cut burrs are for soft metal like alum. and brass. you also need to use parifin wax with it on aluminum to keep it from loading up. On steel and cast iron you use a single cut burr with no lub of any kind. The bolt and easy out are steel so use a single cut burr . Be carefull not to make the hole too big or a helicoil wont work either.

lifer screwed with this post 05-24-2012 at 07:54 PM
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:11 PM   #18
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If it's flush with the surface take one size lower nut (if you have an 8mm bolt take a 6mm nut) place it centered on the top of the bolt and fill the nut's hole with solder and work the bolt its way out while it's warm.
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Old 05-24-2012, 09:37 PM   #19
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Nice. I want to get a can of one of those to have around the house for when I really need it.

Still sorta amazed it's allowed to be sold here in America... I can just imagine what some people will use it for to torture other people with...
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:06 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Captain Beardylocks View Post
Had to take off a set of crash bars to repaint 'em after a bunch of scratches started to rust. everything went fine until the last two bolts. They were rusted to hell and one snapped off, then the other. couldn't even feel it happen with the second one, but oh well.

One had about 1/2" left sticking out of the case, but the other one broke off really close. I filed two flat edges in the long one, lubed it up with liquid wrench for three straight days then clamped it as tight as possible with vice grips to turn it out, but I couldn't get it to budge - the remains of the bolt would have started to give if I'd tried it any harder.

Second step, busted out the easy-out kit. The flats I filed out on the first bolt brought the edges too close in to drill the hole for the spiral extractor, so rather than cut it down and have two bolts cut off flush, I drilled the second one and applied the extractor. low and behold, in spite of the same lube procedure, it snaps almost instantly before the bolt starts to budge.

Next I tried liberal amounts of profanity, but that didn't work either

So now I have a bolt broken off flush in the engine case with a sprial extractor tip embedded in it below the edge of the case, and a second bolt with a half inch left sticking out of the case with two flats filed into it. both are hopelessly rusted in place. Here are my options as I see 'em:

Long bolt:
1: weld on a nut to what's left of the bolt, have a go with the wrench
2: Drill out the bolt, helicoil the case threads and hope it's strong enough for crash bars

Short extractor-filled bolt
1: Use a diamond drill bit to slowly blast through the tool steel of the extractor
2: use a diamond dremel bit or a carbide burr to carve around the edges of the extractor threads until it loosens up inside the bolt, then pull it out somehow
3: use a torch to heat up the bolt and extractor to remove the temper, then drill away (kinda nervous about taking a torch to the engine...)
4: once the extractor is out, one way or another, drill the bolt out and helicoil

normally this would be an EDM job, but I can't think of a way to do that without taking the engine apart (not gonna happen). Is there any kind of EDM system that can be done on site for something like this? I haven't come accross any...

am I missing anything? does anyone have amazing success stories in a situation like this that they want to share? should I just quit fucking around before I damage my engine?


The easy way to remove broken bolts is to put a blob of weld on the end using a MIG welder, thats big enough to hold with vice grips, and wind out the broken bolt as soon as the weld has cooled from red heat. This works in nearly all cases, but you do need to avoid welding on nuts, as invariably these tend to break off, and make the job much more difficult. If broken fastener does not come out first time with this method, then try turning the weld blob, while tapping on it with a hammer, and if it still doesnt move put some more weld on to get heat back into it and try again.
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Old 05-25-2012, 01:12 AM   #21
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For the bolt sticking out, yeah, weld a nut on it and take it out, hot if possible. Impact is the way to go with rusty crap... amazing how well it works. I've also read, (probably here) but never tried, is to use a 50/50 mixture of ATF and acetone as a penetrating oil - it's suppose to be the best option. Put it on and let it soak in. Put more on before it gets hot and the heat should wick it in as well. Like I said, never tried... I use impact and don't seem to have these problems.

For the flush bolt with embedded tapered extractor in expensive engine block... well, I think you just described a worst-case scenario. Sorry about that. Others have offered advice. Me, I'd be thinking about fabbing up another mount point and leaving that dog alone. I mean, does the crash bar really, really, really have to mount in THAT bolt hole? Glue a fake bolt head in the crash bar to make it look right and rig up another mounting point for strength. Just make sure there's either clearance or tension at the unbolted point so it doesn't buzz with vibration.

David...
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Old 05-25-2012, 03:53 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
How anyone could ever expect that a tapered brittle glass hard extractor could remove a seized bolt from a blind hole is completely beyond me.

+1 million....

It never fails to amaze me how many people think along the same lines as the OP. Ah... the bolt is stuck, lets put one of these miracle" cure things called extractors in and that will definately get it out..... If all that torque on the bolt didn't work what makes you think it will work on these very brittle extractors. I cant think of any situation I've been in in over 35 yrs of working on "shit" where I would have done this..... even as a stupid teenager working on my POS 35yr old car, 33yrs ago.....
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:57 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by griffo1962 View Post
+1 million....

It never fails to amaze me how many people think along the same lines as the OP. Ah... the bolt is stuck, lets put one of these miracle" cure things called extractors in and that will definately get it out..... If all that torque on the bolt didn't work what makes you think it will work on these very brittle extractors. I cant think of any situation I've been in in over 35 yrs of working on "shit" where I would have done this..... even as a stupid teenager working on my POS 35yr old car, 33yrs ago.....
I've had great luck using extractors just like you've described. One needs to understand how brittle they are but used properly, they're great. I think many people get too ham fisted with them and don't have a properly sized hole to begin with.
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Old 05-25-2012, 05:48 AM   #24
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The spiral extractors seem to work best for light duty applications, like plastic.

I like left hand drill bits for steel. Die grinders too. Dremel a slot and screwdriver out.

After reading all these stories I use grease or antiseize on EVERY DAMN bolt I remove and put back together just so I can avoid all this shit in the first place.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:24 AM   #25
sieg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regularfella View Post
I've had great luck using extractors just like you've described. One needs to understand how brittle they are but used properly, they're great. I think many people get too ham fisted with them and don't have a properly sized hole to begin with.
I agree they are a great tool when used properly. Removing seized bolts is not the proper use, and that is what the OP has here. His inexperience lead him to choose the wrong tool for the job. There are many ways to remove bolts, donít just grab a extractor every time thinking itís magic. And if you donít know what to do when it breaks donít grab it at all.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:50 AM   #26
ttpete
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Originally Posted by sieg View Post
I agree they are a great tool when used properly. Removing seized bolts is not the proper use, and that is what the OP has here. His inexperience lead him to choose the wrong tool for the job. There are many ways to remove bolts, donít just grab a extractor every time thinking itís magic. And if you donít know what to do when it breaks donít grab it at all.
The idea is to not twist it off in the first place if possible. It's amazing how being patient and using a good penetrant like ATF/acetone and shock can release corroded fasteners. Squirt, tap. wait. Repeat daily. Use heat carefully.

This is the extractor set I have: http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/10-Screw...t/EN/index.htm It doesn't expand the bolt like the tapered ones do.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:18 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifer View Post
I am a turbine millwright and have removed many broken bolts in everything from out board engines to steam turbines. you have only a few options. One is BTR-10 broken tap remover. It is a chemical compound that is diluted with warm water. It will eat the broken bolt and easy out. It only works when a bolt or tap is broken in a no ferous metal like aluminum and brass. It is hard to use and slow. You must get a center hole in the bolt for it to work very well. The way I would do it and have done it many times is to use a die grinder with a 1/8 dia. carbide burr. Grind out the center and work your way out untill you see the thread lines and if your good you can pull the threads out like a spring. On small bolts 1/4 in and smaller this ussually can not be done very easy. Those I grind out completly and retap with a heli coil. You can get a 90 degree die grinder pritty cheap at harbor freight for $20 or so. Then get a small carbide burr preferably with about a 3 - 4 in shank so you can see without the grinder in the way. Use a bright light to see what you are doing.

FYI ; Get single cut burrs. they will not grab on you and go wild like a double cut burr will. One of the biggest mistakes most people make is to use a double cut burr. Double cut burrs are for soft metal like alum. and brass. you also need to use parifin wax with it on aluminum to keep it from loading up. On steel and cast iron you use a single cut burr with no lub of any kind. The bolt and easy out are steel so use a single cut burr . Be carefull not to make the hole too big or a helicoil wont work either.
looks like experience talking...

here's more info: Removing Broken Taps

it never ceases to amaze me how folks miss the fact that if a bolt is frozen tight enough to break. how in the world could an EZ out possibly get that frozen bolt out?

never exceed moderate force on any EZ out. if bolt doesn't start to move with moderate force, back that EZ out and drill that bolt out. use progressively larger bits until thread edges are reached. then remove last of bolt in coils.

before doing anything.... use the best penetrating solution ever made for next to free.
50/50 solution of Acetone/Automatic transmission fluid. Soak overnight if possible, apply generously several times.

_cy_ screwed with this post 05-25-2012 at 09:23 AM
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:19 AM   #28
Twin-shocker
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Pretty much the only thing so called screw extractors seem to extract properly, is money from the wallets of those how dont know how well the things actually work!
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:22 AM   #29
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Extractors work fine but the mistake I see most people doing is they do not take the time to perfectly center the hole they drill for the extractor nor do they take the time to ensure the hole is parallel to the axis of the broken off bolt. Perfectly centered and aligned the hole can be drilled out much larger which makes the job easier, allows you to use a larger extractor which is not so apt to break, and the extractor itself is not subject to torque off its main axis which tends to break them.
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Old 05-25-2012, 10:39 AM   #30
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Yeah, it was pretty stupid to use the extractor in the first place. they've worked when a bolt head is rounded off, but it's pretty clear now that seized threads are a different issue. gotta learn these things somehow I guess.

Yesterday I managed to dremel a little notch in the bolt and expose a little of the broken edge of the extractor tip, thinking I'd tap away at it there til it breaks, but I think I'll re-assess with all this advice - which is very much appreciated
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