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Old 05-08-2012, 07:11 AM   #16
simonpig OP
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Waiting on the manual tensioner from Mark Krieger to be produced. Sent off some measurements and pictures.

Hope it will be soon. Don't want to put another automatic tensioner on it really. Also the manual tensioner will make it easier to install the cams and to set the timing marks more easily. It took me nearly 10 or so tries to get the timing mark set up properly with the stock setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedaha View Post
Clearances look good for the mileage, when comparing to my WR250F I just rebuilt the head after 6,000 kms.
I was adjusting the shims every 1000 k's, it drove me mad, thats main reason I bought a WRR.

The WRR I bought has 10,000 km on it and it too sounds like the cam chain is slapping around a bit.
Especially when you rev the bike and the revs fall back, there is a clatter at a certain rpm.
Have you resolved your would be tensioner issues.

As far as the timing chain is concerned mine on my WRF was stretched at 6000 Km as cam marks could no longer be aligned, so I replaced it. It's good that the R model is not wearing them out as quick.
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:42 PM   #17
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Yeah, I'm waiting on the tensioner from Mark also, before I look into it any further.
(Good riding weather here ATM)

I recorded a video of the noise, but surprisingly you can't hear the clattering noise on the video.
Anyway I have a before video.
If the after (new tensioner) video shows a difference, I will post them.
I will try and do a better before video, before pulling down, I suspect the exhaust is making the cameras auto volume attenuate the chain noise.
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Old 05-25-2012, 10:46 AM   #18
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The Krieger Manual Cam Tensioner came in the mail today. Going to the garage this evening to start the install. Pysched. Heres some pictures.

Thanks Mark, I will keep you posted.

Photobucket

Old vs. New

Photobucket
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:56 PM   #19
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Looks good, I'll see how yours goes then order one as well.

Do you know what the allen key screw is for, on the old tensioner, the manual doesn't mention it from memory.

Will be interesting to see how this fits in with the starter motor, it almost looks like the length will need to be custom cut once installed, and adjusted close, to get the starter motor back in.

You can aways remove some length, it's a bit hard to add it though
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Old 05-27-2012, 10:59 AM   #20
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Finally got to installing it on friday night and as envision made the job of aligning the timing marks SO much easier.

Before going any farther, I loosely installed the starter motor to see what the clearance was there.

Photobucket

Photobucket

No dice. The Acorn nut at the end wasn't allowing the press fit starter to seat.

Photobucket

So I cut 8.6mm (.34 inches) off the end and removed the acorn nut, but left the smaller locking bolt.

Uploaded from the Photobucket iPhone App

I was then able to find the clearance I needed (barely). There enough room to back the adjuster out .3 inches, but I needed to used a small wrench and some small piece of rubber to protect the threads in order to adjust it.

I left the small adjuster as an option on in the case I needed to used to larger main lock nut to lock to the smaller for fine tuning adjustments.

Photobucket

Photobucket

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Mark, because of the starter clearance issue, it might make sense to either machine flat .25 at the end of the threaded nut so that a wrench can used for leverage.

Or drill it (safety wire style at the 12 and 6 postion/ and 3 and 9 positions) so that a small pin can be used to gain leverage to adjust the bolt in and out.

Photobucket

Putting the bike back together was an exercise in focus. When going to refill the radiator, I forgot to connect a small hose and was rewarded with a coolant overflowing from the end of the temperture sensor hose.

After that I bolted everything back, and put the gas tank back on, I fired it up. I was worried something was going to sieze or that I messed something up, but it seems to run fine. I started messing with the adjuster and could hear the the engine going from a "tick" to a "clack" when backing out the adjuster. Tuned it by ear where I felt the sound transition over and locked it there.

Have a ride in a couple of weeks, so I'm leaving everything as is for now, I'll only need to adjust once every blue moon, so I'm fine with this solution.
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:16 AM   #21
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I don't know? I removed the screw and the hex bolt to see what would happen which was nothing really. If I could take the unit apart, I might be able to figure out if the there is blockage in the oil paths, but looks like the unit was designed to be forever locked in the cast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedaha View Post
Looks good, I'll see how yours goes then order one as well.

Do you know what the allen key screw is for, on the old tensioner, the manual doesn't mention it from memory.

Will be interesting to see how this fits in with the starter motor, it almost looks like the length will need to be custom cut once installed, and adjusted close, to get the starter motor back in.

You can aways remove some length, it's a bit hard to add it though

simonpig screwed with this post 05-28-2012 at 09:27 AM
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Old 05-27-2012, 04:27 PM   #22
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Nice to know the kit functions properly in regards to the cam chain adjustment, now to correct the issue with the nut.

I don't want to file flats, because there will no longer be any zinc coating on that part and it will rust. The only way I would do that is if I can get some sort of plastic or rubber end cap like a tire stem cap to cover the end in an attempt to avoid rust. There other possibilities though.

I looked at the pictures, but am not totally sure if I am seeing things as I think I am. I may have a solution I use on the KLX250. I use an allen nut from a Yamaha SR500 exhaust - IF there is any clearance for it. It is 13mm in diameter, I am not sure I see that much clearance there in the pictures so you will have to let me know. I can turn the nut down tight against the end of the bolt and with a dab of blue LocTite on the thread it should stay put. I can also use a shorter bolt since it appears you cut about 10mm off the 110mm bolt. Let me know if there is 13mm of clearance there, otherwise it is plan B.

If that can't fly, I will look at using an M6-1.00 adjuster bolt with the same jam nut/acorn nut set up since that should clear. The pressure on the bolt is linear, in compression, and in line with the center axis of the bolt so the smaller size will work fine. It will just look small. Not a big deal. Shoot, I think that's the size of the thread on the Tokyo Mods tensioner is even smaller, possibly an M5.

We will see if the allen nut can work first. You can see it below by the exhaust on the KLX. We went to that because they couldn't access the adjuster that easily when a large diameter aftermarket exhaust is used.



Hopefully there is enough room for the allen nut to turn without hitting the casting. I use the jam nut on the KLX because I prefer to lock the nut against the allen nut, which would not damage the threads at all and the jam nut cost is only about a nickle.

Get back with me and I can mail out the allen nut if it will work. Otherwise I will get bodies with the smaller thread made for me.
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Old 05-27-2012, 04:59 PM   #23
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Great Documentation simonpig, I thought it was going to be close re starter motor clearance.
Great tensioner Markk53, sign me up for one, I'll discuss this with Email.

Typically how much spare thread would you need for adjustments, I guess your just taking the wear out of the guides, more than the stretch out of the chain. (Unless you have an F model that is.)

I'm Happy to order one with the allen key end, all I'd ask is don't lock tight it on, I'll lock tight at this end after the fit is successfull. (I don't mind if I have to file the end square with a dab of paint, after tensioned)

Also I can take my valve cover off (want to check clearances anyway) and observe the timing mark etc, to see if this is risky to do blind. From what I've read, so long as they don't insert a loaded automatic tensioner, things should stay put, my only worry is can it hang lose on the crankshaft end and jump a tooth there. I think there are some little guides down that end to maybe prevent that, not sure.

I noticed a photo of this that simon took, (a page back) and it looks like it holds tight to the gear teeth at one point and probably won't jump down the bottom.
(but its a big probably if it does jump)

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Old 05-28-2012, 09:02 AM   #24
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The current bolt is an M8, yes? The allen nut solution MIGHT work if the adjuster bolt were an M6 and the odds are even better with an M5 bolt as we are gaining clearance from the threads of the adjuster to the starter motor as the bolt gets skinnier (assuming allen nut outside diameter gets smaller with bolt size getting smaller.

There is essentially almost no clearance from the adjuster thread to the bolt on the housing of starter motor. Its fortuitous that the starter motor sinks in at that location, otherwise, I don't see an type of simple elegant solutions beside the stock tensioner.

As long as you can find an long allen bolt with same (or smaller) outside diameter of the CURRENT threaded adjuster bolt, it will clear—anything larger in diameter is no good (ala acorn nut). Anything shorter doesn't really help because the clearance issue starts 2–3mm after the jam nut in the pictures I sent.

Another thought is that if the housing could be half the thickness of the current one that would help gain you some clearance?



Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post

I looked at the pictures, but am not totally sure if I am seeing things as I think I am. I may have a solution I use on the KLX250. I use an allen nut from a Yamaha SR500 exhaust - IF there is any clearance for it. It is 13mm in diameter, I am not sure I see that much clearance there in the pictures so you will have to let me know. I can turn the nut down tight against the end of the bolt and with a dab of blue LocTite on the thread it should stay put. I can also use a shorter bolt since it appears…

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Old 05-28-2012, 09:12 AM   #25
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You don't need to take the valve cover off to replace the OEM tensioner. The crank end is VERY secure, and the cam gear end will stay put when you remove it. Just pull the stater and install the new tensioner turn in until theres a slight resistance and then fine tuning with the bike running.

Just make sure you don't forget turn in the adjuster to take up enough slack first before electric starting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedaha View Post
Great Documentation simonpig, I thought it was going to be close re starter motor clearance.
Great tensioner Markk53, sign me up for one, I'll discuss this with Email.

Typically how much spare thread would you need for adjustments, I guess your just taking the wear out of the guides, more than the stretch out of the chain. (Unless you have an F model that is.)

I'm Happy to order one with the allen key end, all I'd ask is don't lock tight it on, I'll lock tight at this end after the fit is successfull. (I don't mind if I have to file the end square with a dab of paint, after tensioned)

Also I can take my valve cover off (want to check clearances anyway) and observe the timing mark etc, to see if this is risky to do blind. From what I've read, so long as they don't insert a loaded automatic tensioner, things should stay put, my only worry is can it hang lose on the crankshaft end and jump a tooth there. I think there are some little guides down that end to maybe prevent that, not sure.

I noticed a photo of this that simon took, (a page back) and it looks like it holds tight to the gear teeth at one point and probably won't jump down the bottom.
(but its a big probably if it does jump)
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Old 05-28-2012, 03:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonpig View Post
The current bolt is an M8, yes? The allen nut solution MIGHT work if the adjuster bolt were an M6 and the odds are even better with an M5 bolt as we are gaining clearance from the threads of the adjuster to the starter motor as the bolt gets skinnier (assuming allen nut outside diameter gets smaller with bolt size getting smaller.

There is essentially almost no clearance from the adjuster thread to the bolt on the housing of starter motor. Its fortuitous that the starter motor sinks in at that location, otherwise, I don't see an type of simple elegant solutions beside the stock tensioner.

As long as you can find an long allen bolt with same (or smaller) outside diameter of the CURRENT threaded adjuster bolt, it will clear—anything larger in diameter is no good (ala acorn nut). Anything shorter doesn't really help because the clearance issue starts 2–3mm after the jam nut in the pictures I sent.

Another thought is that if the housing could be half the thickness of the current one that would help gain you some clearance?

Got it covered. I'm going to slot the bolt end so it can be finger tightened with a flat blade screwdriver, then a plastic cap put over the end (tire air valve stem cap) to try to keep the slot from rusting. I know the bolt should NEVER be tightened to the point where the slotted end would not work, so that's the plan at this point.

Thought of it while on the road coming back from Springfield. Incredible races both the TT and THE MILE. Talked briefly with Henry Wiles, what a great kid. Reflected in his comments and just the look in his eyes when talking about the races. I thanked him for them putting on a good show in the races. He then took a moment to talk with us about the races. We said something about the track (great) and the heat (hot). He commented about feeling a breeze on the front straight and feeling the wind push a bit on the back straight. Then he asked us if we were at the TT and we said yes. He commented about how great the races were and if we enjoyed them. Of course we did then we asked about the tightness of the track and about Peoria. He had total enthusiasm describing it and all. Odd thing, he never once commented about his results at the TT - he won - or his record at Peoria - won seven of the past eight races 04-06 and 08-11 - just the enthusiasm about the tracks and the races. No ego massaging needed, all enthusiasm.
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Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

Mark - klx678
95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550
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Old 05-28-2012, 05:15 PM   #27
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That could provide you enough clearance from starter motor if the bolt were cut to the length of the threshold of the OEM maximum adjustment. The formula being:

(length OEM adjuster juts into case (51.5 mm) + thickness of your housing + locking bolt height + length of additional thread needed for tire valve stem cap + maybe 1-2 threads to compensate for the depth of your slot)

With this formula. As soon as the tire valve stem cap cover interfaces with the adjuster bolt, you know you've hit the maximum end of the adjustment for the tensioner and your chain is no longer adjustable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Got it covered. I'm going to slot the bolt end so it can be finger tightened with a flat blade screwdriver, then a plastic cap put over the end (tire air valve stem cap) to try to keep the slot from rusting. I know the bolt should NEVER be tightened to the point where the slotted end would not work, so that's the plan at this point.

Thought of it while on the road coming back from Springfield. Incredible races both the TT and THE MILE. Talked briefly with Henry Wiles, what a great kid. Reflected in his comments and just the look in his eyes when talking about the races. I thanked him for them putting on a good show in the races. He then took a moment to talk with us about the races. We said something about the track (great) and the heat (hot). He commented about feeling a breeze on the front straight and feeling the wind push a bit on the back straight. Then he asked us if we were at the TT and we said yes. He commented about how great the races were and if we enjoyed them. Of course we did then we asked about the tightness of the track and about Peoria. He had total enthusiasm describing it and all. Odd thing, he never once commented about his results at the TT - he won - or his record at Peoria - won seven of the past eight races 04-06 and 08-11 - just the enthusiasm about the tracks and the races. No ego massaging needed, all enthusiasm.
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Old 05-28-2012, 06:01 PM   #28
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That's the plan. There is no need for any significant leverage factor so a screw slot is easy and a good solution. I will be doing up a few of them and send you one unless you simply want to cut the one you have down a total OAL of 95mm (per below info) and cut a slot in it with a hacksaw or small grinder wheel (Dremel) then swipe an air cap from some car somewhere... It will have to be plastic, because it will be crossthreading, valve stems aren't M8-1.25 and there is nothing out there in that thread that I found readily available. Let me know

I have the inside engine distance at 51mm plus the body/flange nut/air cap stack up at 34mm plus 10mm adjustment range equalling a total of 95mm. That is pretty much exactly the length of a 90mm hex bolt including the head thickness, which is what I will be using.

Thanks for the pictures and input so far.

In a quick afterthought, I may try dipping a bolt in some vinyl tool handle goop, let it set up then unscrew the resulting "cap" and screw it on the slotted bolt. Might work okay and is worth a try.
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Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

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Old 05-31-2012, 03:48 PM   #29
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Would you send me one. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
That's the plan. There is no need for any significant leverage factor so a screw slot is easy and a good solution. I will be doing up a few of them and send you one unless you simply want to cut the one you have down a total OAL of 95mm (per below info)
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Old 06-04-2012, 07:48 AM   #30
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Will do.

I looked at a WR while at the shop Saturday. I see the problem. The slotting should work. I don't know if there's enough room for a valve stem cap or not. A dab of fingernail polish or a dab of silicone seal would work to keep from having the sawn slot rusting. It's an esthetics thing, not really functional.
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Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

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95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550
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