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Old 06-11-2012, 07:32 PM   #61
ID XR600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IheartmyNx View Post
Agreed. We're splitting hares here. I'm out.
Splitting hares? Do hares paws all drive at the same time or are the intermittent? Kidding

I hope there's no harm in a good discussion. I have been so impressed with the Christini drive that I thought I'd post my experiences for anyone interested. It is a leap forward in traction for me, from the pics you can see I'm in conditions that it is made for. Many riding applications aren't improved, just like 4X4 vehicles are a waste for many owners. For me my 4X4 pickup, 4X4 ATV, and Christini drive KX all get used front wheel drive and rear wheel drive.
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Old 06-11-2012, 07:36 PM   #62
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Has anyone seen the Dualsport versions showing up at their local dealers yet? Mine says they should be in 'any day now'
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Old 06-12-2012, 06:28 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by IheartmyNx View Post
Ok, sweet....

So if I lock the hubs on my Hilux, I can ride around shifting in-and-out of 4WD as surfaces or differences in tire rotations permit, and that's "AWD".

Uh, no.
This is like rocket science for you, apparently.

If YOU are taking it in and out of 4WD, then it's 4WD sometimes and 2WD sometimes.

If the car (be it the computer, or the differential(s), or the sprag clutch) is sending power where it sees fit, and it sometimes but not always sends the power to all the wheels, then it's AWD.

You do realize that there are sports cars which send power to the rear wheels normally, but under certain conditions they will send more power to the front wheels, right? And that everybody calls this AWD, even though it isn't always a 50/50 power split, and normally works basically as RWD?

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/ni...ned-35006.html

This is VERY similar to the way that the Christini works, except the Christini does it mechanically instead of electronically.

Please have fun telling us that the Skyline GTR is NOT AWD.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:04 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpt4321 View Post
This is like rocket science for you, apparently.

If YOU are taking it in and out of 4WD, then it's 4WD sometimes and 2WD sometimes.



Please have fun telling us that the Skyline GTR is NOT AWD.
Why would I do that?


Or how bout the Gallardo? With it's adjustable torque splitting center diff? Good for dialing down understeer.

And you clearly missed my analogy. Whether mechanically, computer, or MANUALLY initiated, it's NOT, ALL THE TIME like "All" Wheel Drive and it's sister "Full-Time" or "Permanent 4WD" suggest...

therefore... Not a true AWD. You can't drive a 4WD on the road without gear bind, though LOTS of "AWD" or "On Demand" systems are marketed to consumers as AWD.

So my analogy of MANUALLY placing my truck in or out holds the same. It is NOT AWD but rather On Demand. A secondary system that REQUIRES initiation or driver input to work.

Have fun telling me about AWD or 4WD systems... Because there is not one to-date I don't understand.

Go on believing "The wheel that slips, is the wheel that grips" despite knowing what open-diff LAW states.

I can school you on retarded "traction control" and the EVO-8(?) center diff too.

Some Center Diffs are lockable, some are not. Some are unable to even lock as an add-on or "mod" and are temperature/fluid (Viscous) controlled as too bumping or "humping" the other shaft connected to it for momentary "All-Wheel Drive".

Some even have a stack of clutch plates and have a driver controlled adjustability so you change it's f/r torque split (or bias) on the fly.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:13 AM   #65
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This thread's going to Head explody in 3..2..1...
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:24 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ID XR600 View Post

I hope there's no harm in a good discussion.

All I aim to do in this discussion is remove any misconceptions so that if anyone interested in this wants to look at it logically to see if it does or does not fit them, they can do so.

It does NOT have a center differential. (That makes it a Power Take-Off. Technically, the same exact thing as the transfer-case of a Part-Time 4WD.)

Both wheels are NOT under power at all times despite the difference in tire rotations.

The front wheel IS in free-wheel until it is initiated to permit drive, and in some cases it may not continue to permit drive in less than 1/3rd of a tire rotation.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:29 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IheartmyNx View Post
Both wheels are NOT under power at all times despite the difference in tire rotations.
"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." (Shakespeare)

IheartmyNx, I respectfully and humbly asked you for YOUR definition of "all-wheel drive" ealier, but I don't think you expressed such a definition fully.

Is a CENTER DIFFERENTIAL essential in your definition of an all-wheel drive system? Your previous post suggests to me you think so.

Further, your comments suggest to me you infer "all" must mean "all the time," not merely "all wheels."

Old "four-wheel drive" Jeeps and trucks typically had transfer cases, shiftable to divide engine power between both front and rear wheels (when in "four-wheel drive"), or to send power to the rear wheels only (when in two-wheel drive mode). Though not in four-wheel drive ALL the time, these vehicles were referred to in common usage as, "four-wheel drive" conveyances.

In usage, vehicles with adapative drivetrains powering front and rear wheels dependent upon relative front/rear tire rotation, typically, are called "all-wheel drive" vehicles, within my observation.

I think Christini's characteristics fall more appropriately within the "all-wheel drive" category, although the designation does not mean, to me, both front and rear wheels are powered all the time.

Your lexicon, and you're entitled to your own definition of terms; my perception is no more correct nor valid than yours.

I thought a more meaningful discussion might result from some agreement on the definition of terms. Without such a definition, I think of the proverbial five sightless individuals examining an elephant.

Meanwhile, the Christini does its thing, however we may wish to categorize its drivetrain.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:36 AM   #68
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First, is the Skyline GTR AWD, or not?

Second, can you please point me to the official definition of AWD that you're using when you say we're all wrong?

Third, are you saying that "AWD on demand" systems are not AWD?

In the end, you seem you be saying that what everybody (car manufacturers, bike manufacturers, other inmates) calls AWD, isn't actually AWD, and that only you know what the true definition of AWD is. I guess if that's your position you can't possibly be wrong, but the rest of us will continue to use the definition that the world as a whole recognizes, and you can continue to live in your own land of different terminology.

As a side note, I never said that "the wheel that slips is the wheel that grips," and the odds are that I know as much (or more) about differentials and AWD systems than you do, so you can save explaining that some differentials may have clutch packs (wow!). I'd love to hear you "school me" on SAWC, though, and maybe since there is "not an AWD system you don't understand" you can explain how you vary the torque bias capability of a torsen/quaife/helical LSD.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:42 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XDragRacer View Post
Without such a definition, I think of the proverbial five sightless individuals examining an elephant.
Actually, that technically isn't an elephant. Yes, you and I call that an elephant, and standard resources might call it an elephant, but it doesn't meet his arbitrary, unique, and unexpressed requirements for being called an elephant, so he's going to tell you that you're wrong.

I had a 3-legged dog once. I suppose I technically shouldn't have called it a dog, since dogs have 4 legs.

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Old 06-12-2012, 12:56 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpt4321 View Post
so he's going to tell you that you're wrong.

Dude, c'mon with the baiting here.

1st off, I don't give a chit about a Skyline and I have the internet... So not sure the big deal wit dat...

2nd, if I replace the hubs on my Hilux with sprag clutches and run 30's on the back and 31's on the front, drive it in 4H all the time... does that make it AWD?


3rd, ALL the wheels do not have power to them as "Wheel Drive" would suggest. If they did, you'd have 4 individual drive-shafts running to 4 individual wheels... And even if the front was a steer axle, it'd still have gear bind (on-road) and it wouldn't turn in soup (mud) like a spooled front axle 4WD, off-road...



Thanks for playing...


...DAMN! Took that hook, line and sinker!
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Old 06-12-2012, 01:02 PM   #71
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Once (or maybe twice) more, IheartmyNx, will you now enlighten us by disclosing what you consider the TRUE definition of "All-Wheel Drive?"
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Old 06-12-2012, 01:04 PM   #72
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Why do we have a car thread in thumpers?

Cars are boring, let's talk about motorbikes!
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Old 06-12-2012, 01:44 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IheartmyNx View Post
"All wheel Drive" or "Full Time 4WD" is actually a marketing term designed only to sell to consumers.


AWD is diffs times 3. Front, Center and Rear. Lift one up and if the center is open or unlocked, it's game over. All the power will go to it and since it has no traction forward progress will be halted. So hardly "All" wheel drive.
A vehicle is all wheel drive if it has the ability to send power to all of its wheels, even if this happens only under limited circumstances that occur infrequently or in a manner that is actually not desirable in terms of continued forward motion or overall vehicle control.

Why is this even something that people debate about?

The people who design, build, sell, and regulate vehicles for a living get to define the terms and set the standards; not random people on the internet. This definition has already been set, and it appears that they didn't bother to ask you for your input.

Specifically, in Standard J1952 the SAE defines all wheel drive as being "a vehicle drive system with the ability to drive all wheels". That's the entirety of the definition.

There is absolutely no mention of "Diff x 3" or any other specifics of the system.

They do, hoewever, make it clear both textually and diagrammatically that there are in fact many different types of systems that are legitimately considered to be All Wheel Drive, and that 3 differentials are not a required feature.

Reference: http://bzwxw.com/soft/UploadSoft/new...J1952-1995.pdf

SAE > you.

The end.

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Old 06-12-2012, 01:45 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IheartmyNx View Post
Dude, you are on! Right on!
Yes, I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IheartmyNx View Post
The only reservations I have is when you take away the larger front hoop that lets the over-run dis-engage and as you correctly say "allow the turn-in"...
Now replace the front with a diameter that closer matches the rear and technically the two will be fighting or close (in rotation) for drive, front V. rear...
No big deal, not pooing on Christini... I just think new pilots on Supermoto type rigs need to be aware of this before they get real aggressive in their backing-it-in.
First, you have it backwards with the smaller wheel bringing the drives closer together, actually a smaller wheel lowers the drive ratio, Just like putting a smaller diameter wheel on the back of your 1 wheel drive bike will lower its top speed. That is why I have to gear the front drive higher when I change to the Supermoto wheels.

Second, what do you mean "fighting"?? You would have to get within about 95% of the rear wheels gearing before it would ever start to bind and that would only happen if turning a sharp corner on pavement. When backing it in, the rear wheel is effectively skidding, at which point the sprag clutch is free wheeling, so there is no possible interference. Have you ever raced Supermoto, backed it in, or even ridden an AWD bike? I doubt it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IheartmyNx View Post
It can be argued that hydroplaning has almost if not the exact effects (seat of the pants on the bike) as backing it in. In a straight line, you're golden.
Now introduce steering angle, a f/r traction bias... Now add power, and the results could be an offy.
If the Christini had a diff between the front and rear, transitions in traction and power would be seamless. But as said a wheelie would stop it... And a center ltd slip or Viscous coupler might not work out on a motorcycle.
I don't know where you get this hydroplaning from, but it is nothing like backing it in. Hydroplaning is where a tire looses contact with the road because of speed through a depth of water, it has nothing to do with braking or acceleration, though it can certainly affect both. Hydroplaning can and likely will occur at different times for the front and back tire because tire width, diameter, and load are all factors. Again, backing it in is braking, if you add power, you're not backing it in.

You can't use a diff with the Christini because of the sprag clutch. The system works because you only want drive in front, not engine braking, therefore a diff will not work. The system works quite well, you should actually try riding one some time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IheartmyNx View Post
Clarification: For North America, most of the Supermoto tracks are 100% paved. In Europe, it's prolly opposite.
Pavement only, I don't think the thing will work or be worth the money at all and I think it's popularity would be placebo.
Link backs up my opinion as well.
This proves you don't race Supermoto. The definition of Supermoto is a part dirt/part asphalt track. And if you actually read the link, you would know that he thought the system was an advantage, even on a fast asphalt only track.
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Old 06-12-2012, 05:43 PM   #75
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Now he'll just have to add the SAE and all the world's car manufacturers to his list of people who are wrong about the definition of AWD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmiguy View Post
A vehicle is all wheel drive if it has the ability to send power to all of its wheels, even if this happens only under limited circumstances that occur infrequently or in a manner that is actually not desirable in terms of continued forward motion or overall vehicle control.

Why is this even something that people debate about?

The people who design, build, sell, and regulate vehicles for a living get to define the terms and set the standards; not random people on the internet. This definition has already been set, and it appears that they didn't bother to ask you for your input.

Specifically, in Standard J1952 the SAE defines all wheel drive as being "a vehicle drive system with the ability to drive all wheels". That's the entirety of the definition.

There is absolutely no mention of "Diff x 3" or any other specifics of the system.

They do, hoewever, make it clear both textually and diagrammatically that there are in fact many different types of systems that are legitimately considered to be All Wheel Drive, and that 3 differentials are not a required feature.

Reference: http://bzwxw.com/soft/UploadSoft/new...J1952-1995.pdf

SAE > you.

The end.
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