ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > Racing
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-22-2012, 10:24 AM   #16
Brodovitch
Team ⌘R
 
Brodovitch's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Oddometer: 3,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
Lifted from one of my posts in another thread...
When you use GPS, you always know where you’re going. When you always know where you’re going, you never get lost. When you never get lost, you miss out on big adventures. When you miss out on big adventures, your life becomes a bore. When your life becomes a bore, you sit at home and watch DirecTV all day. Don’t sit at home watching DirecTV all day, race with a roadbook!
Missed it the first time 'round, but, amen to that!
__________________
TALES FROM THE BIVOUAC
TWOONEZERO
Brodovitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2012, 10:38 AM   #17
HogWild
Scott Whitney
 
HogWild's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: SoCal USA
Oddometer: 2,528
Quote:
Originally Posted by greglewis View Post
I have been searching for a tool, method, whatever, to take a gps track and turn it into a road book. Probably not every comment, but at least the turns (left, right, bear left, etc) and mileage. Anyone got any sources...ideas...good jokes?
It's not really possible to do that unless you stick 100% to well mapped roads that are in modern digital maps. If you stick to such roads, you can use Google Maps to make a ROUTE that gives you text directions ("Left", "Right", etc.) as well as mileages. That's a basic roadbook, though it would be missing proper tulip drawings. As soon as you go off on a dirt trail, or even more challenging stuff like open dunes, you're stuck with doing it by hand. There is a new rally roadbook tool being developed that will help with the mileages and a few other things, but it's FAR from being able to take a GPS track file and convert it into a roadbook. How would it know about a hazard such as a washout in a road, or a lone tree that you have to make a turn at? In my view, a good challenging roadbook ride would stay off most well defined roads as much as possible.
__________________
.
New desert racing frontiers
It will be Diabolical!
HogWild is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2012, 10:46 AM   #18
Myway
Beastly Adventurer
 
Myway's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Knobby country
Oddometer: 2,302
I hear topriders saying the roadbook was not correct. (mudgate).
I wonder if Coma, Depres, etc. ever made one for others.
Myway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2012, 05:25 PM   #19
crankshaft
Guns are for pussies
 
crankshaft's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Burlingtron,VT
Oddometer: 13,974
Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
It's not really possible to do that unless you stick 100% to well mapped roads that are in modern digital maps. If you stick to such roads, you can use Google Maps to make a ROUTE that gives you text directions ("Left", "Right", etc.) as well as mileages. That's a basic roadbook, though it would be missing proper tulip drawings. As soon as you go off on a dirt trail, or even more challenging stuff like open dunes, you're stuck with doing it by hand. There is a new rally roadbook tool being developed that will help with the mileages and a few other things, but it's FAR from being able to take a GPS track file and convert it into a roadbook. How would it know about a hazard such as a washout in a road, or a lone tree that you have to make a turn at? In my view, a good challenging roadbook ride would stay off most well defined roads as much as possible.

Have you tried the iPad app? From past experience, hand writing a route and then converting it to a digital file is a pain in the ass. It looks like the app allows easy sharing of the RB file, you can even email it from the pad.


If the point of the RB is to avoid using a GPS, not sure why a GPS is even in the equation...can you explain that to me? Is it so you can create a road book at home instead of going out and riding it? To be clear, all my routes are in a roll chart format and not all of the routes will show up on a GPS, so I'll need to ride it.

Thank you for your help by the way, much appreciated
__________________
Just say'IN
crankshaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2012, 05:42 PM   #20
greglewis
Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, Illinoisistan - the straight road state
Oddometer: 66
Thanks for the responses. Here is what I would like to do:

I have the gps downloads for the TWAT from the BigDog Adventures site (maybe its roklym?). However, I don't want to use a gps, I would like to ride the trail using a roadbook or rollchart. So, I'd like to find a way to convert them to a roadbook. However, I'm beginning to think it's near impossible. As has been pointed out, a gps is pretty easy to use. An odometer and roadbook is more of a challenge. But, to me, that's part of the lure - to learn how to navigate.

Greg
greglewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2012, 05:45 PM   #21
Stagehand
+/- V TDSPP
 
Stagehand's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Shawangunks
Oddometer: 24,993
Quote:
Originally Posted by greglewis View Post
Thanks for the responses. Here is what I would like to do:

I have the gps downloads for the TWAT from the BigDog Adventures site (maybe its roklym?). However, I don't want to use a gps, I would like to ride the trail using a roadbook or rollchart. So, I'd like to find a way to convert them to a roadbook. However, I'm beginning to think it's near impossible. As has been pointed out, a gps is pretty easy to use. An odometer and roadbook is more of a challenge. But, to me, that's part of the lure - to learn how to navigate.

Greg

Get a couple of guys who like to do it and make roadbooks for each other. Thats the brute force method. Use GPS to create them, fine but if you can find somebody up to the task of making one for you, thats grassroots sport building in action!
__________________
Unintentional psychokinesis.
Stagehand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2012, 08:51 PM   #22
HogWild
Scott Whitney
 
HogWild's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: SoCal USA
Oddometer: 2,528
Quote:
Originally Posted by crankshaft View Post
Have you tried the iPad app? From past experience, hand writing a route and then converting it to a digital file is a pain in the ass. It looks like the app allows easy sharing of the RB file, you can even email it from the pad.
I've never significantly used any roadbook making tools except my own. I've studied many of them, but never saw one that would do what I wanted to do. The one Mike is working on aims to do all the stuff I want, so when it becomes available, I'll test the hell out of it and help him get the bugs out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crankshaft View Post
If the point of the RB is to avoid using a GPS, not sure why a GPS is even in the equation...can you explain that to me? Is it so you can create a road book at home instead of going out and riding it?
In my view the point of the roadbook (in a rally race) isn't to avoid GPS, it's just a navigation tool from times before GPS was available. But navigating with a roadbook introduces challenges that are not there with a GPS, especially in places where there is no road or trail. Using GPS tracks to navigate in a cross-country rally would be like running the Baja 1000 on pavement. It misses the whole point. Including challenging navigation forces the competitors to THINK about where they are going.

On the oher hand, if you're creating a roadbook for others to enjoy, then using a GPS to help you create that roadbook makes perfect sense. And if you're checking a newly created roadbook in places you've never been, which is almost 100% of the time for me, then a GPS is almost mandatory to keep yourself alive and to deal with unexpected course blockages. But once the roadbook is checked and all mistkes and issues are corrected, then the GPS should not be needed (except maybe for compass headings or emergency escapes).

Quote:
Originally Posted by crankshaft View Post
To be clear, all my routes are in a roll chart format and not all of the routes will show up on a GPS, so I'll need to ride it.
I don't understand that? Any path that is above ground can be captured in a GPS track, which will show up on a GPS that supports tracks. And that GPS track can be recorded while riding, or hand drawn in Google Earth or MapSource or some other tool before you ever go there in person.
__________________
.
New desert racing frontiers
It will be Diabolical!
HogWild is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2012, 09:35 PM   #23
crankshaft
Guns are for pussies
 
crankshaft's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Burlingtron,VT
Oddometer: 13,974
Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
I've never significantly used any roadbook making tools except my own. I've studied many of them, but never saw one that would do what I wanted to do. The one Mike is working on aims to do all the stuff I want, so when it becomes available, I'll test the hell out of it and help him get the bugs out.



In my view the point of the roadbook (in a rally race) isn't to avoid GPS, it's just a navigation tool from times before GPS was available. But navigating with a roadbook introduces challenges that are not there with a GPS, especially in places where there is no road or trail. Using GPS tracks to navigate in a cross-country rally would be like running the Baja 1000 on pavement. It misses the whole point. Including challenging navigation forces the competitors to THINK about where they are going.

On the oher hand, if you're creating a roadbook for others to enjoy, then using a GPS to help you create that roadbook makes perfect sense. And if you're checking a newly created roadbook in places you've never been, which is almost 100% of the time for me, then a GPS is almost mandatory to keep yourself alive and to deal with unexpected course blockages. But once the roadbook is checked and all mistkes and issues are corrected, then the GPS should not be needed (except maybe for compass headings or emergency escapes).

I don't understand that? Any path that is above ground can be captured in a GPS track, which will show up on a GPS that supports tracks. And that GPS track can be recorded while riding, or hand drawn in Google Earth or MapSource or some other tool before you ever go there in person.

The routes I have roll charted don't really need a GPS, some of them I can ride from memory. I suppose I could map the route on the GPS map in my living room but I would prefer to ride it, that's why I bought a bike I guess I'm dense and I'm missing the point. Since the route is roll charted already, I have the mileages, so all I need to do is add the tulips and I can do that while I ride. Well, I can stop and add the tulips is what I mean.

All my local riding is woods roads, dirt roads, snowmobile trails, seasonal roads, logging roads, quad trail and ancient roads that are still legal to ride.
Maybe making routes is easy here compared to the desert where you ride?
We don't have the wide open spaces here in New England, it's almost impossible to run out of gas here From an open source point of view, I like the idea of sharing my routes with other rally minded people. An awful lot of people go all the way to California for rally training, so why not have a few routes in the North East for Rally racers in training?

Goal for this year is to RB two of my routes and I'm starting on Sunday! A riding buddy of mine is an Apache pilot and He's offered to help me, so I'm sure He's had plenty of navigation training and can really help me out.

As Charlie would say fun fun
__________________
Just say'IN
crankshaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2012, 11:46 PM   #24
Brodovitch
Team ⌘R
 
Brodovitch's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Oddometer: 3,171
I'm with Hogwild...

here is a small(ish) video of Dimitris - who makes the routes for our Rallyraid Cup here in Greece- scouting tomorrow's race




I borrowed his bike a while back when mine was bust, the cockpit was pretty daunting. He writes down the whole route by hand. Makes sense as that's the only way to include dangers, reference points (fence, spring, water tower, small roadside chapel at 6:32 etc) but also has a GPS on board and carries a satellite tracking device (like the one we racers get given) and has a friend track him from a PC. Tracking is by mytrack.gr and works on an iphone as well:


From the Serres race last year

Notice the modified RB cover which allows him to roll the paper over the cover, giving him a flat surface to write on, plus the fugly pen holder contraption next to the throttle.

This particular route didn't have many intersections, I can dig up some more which included navigation by heading (last month's race at Kalavryta)

After riding the course he transfers all hand-written notes manually into a custom-made program someone made for him and it gets printed with digital fonts/tulips etc, like this one from Serres last year:



I'm not a fan of full colour road-books, but I am starting to get used to them (Albania last week was a perfect example of good use of colour in road-books, especially in the speed limit sections where all three columns had a faint pinkish background)

Another in black & white:



notice the stop sign on the intersection. Good info when there is a small asphalt connecting bit on a special, with no speed limit, and you don't want to end up as a hood ornament

Time consuming? Hell yes. But his roadbooks are considered bench-marks around this part of Europe, I even think Edvin (Kassimati of Rally Albania) learned the art from him, and we were surprised by how good the Albania ones were
__________________
TALES FROM THE BIVOUAC
TWOONEZERO
Brodovitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2012, 08:11 AM   #25
crankshaft
Guns are for pussies
 
crankshaft's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Burlingtron,VT
Oddometer: 13,974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodovitch View Post
I'm with Hogwild...

here is a small(ish) video of Dimitris - who makes the routes for our Rallyraid Cup here in Greece- scouting tomorrow's race




I borrowed his bike a while back when mine was bust, the cockpit was pretty daunting. He writes down the whole route by hand. Makes sense as that's the only way to include dangers, reference points (fence, spring, water tower, small roadside chapel at 6:32 etc) but also has a GPS on board and carries a satellite tracking device (like the one we racers get given) and has a friend track him from a PC. Tracking is by mytrack.gr and works on an iphone as well:


From the Serres race last year

Notice the modified RB cover which allows him to roll the paper over the cover, giving him a flat surface to write on, plus the fugly pen holder contraption next to the throttle.

This particular route didn't have many intersections, I can dig up some more which included navigation by heading (last month's race at Kalavryta)

After riding the course he transfers all hand-written notes manually into a custom-made program someone made for him and it gets printed with digital fonts/tulips etc, like this one from Serres last year:



I'm not a fan of full colour road-books, but I am starting to get used to them (Albania last week was a perfect example of good use of colour in road-books, especially in the speed limit sections where all three columns had a faint pinkish background)

Another in black & white:



notice the stop sign on the intersection. Good info when there is a small asphalt connecting bit on a special, with no speed limit, and you don't want to end up as a hood ornament

Time consuming? Hell yes. But his roadbooks are considered bench-marks around this part of Europe, I even think Edvin (Kassimati of Rally Albania) learned the art from him, and we were surprised by how good the Albania ones were

Great information, thank you! I'm determined to try the iPad program, at least as a test. If it sucks, I'll let everyone know and then save everyone from spending the money. A free iPad and then 9.99 app, it seems like a no brainer to me.

The color RB's are nice! Last year, I was emailing Evin about running the Rally. Nice guy!
__________________
Just say'IN
crankshaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 01:48 PM   #26
Stagehand
+/- V TDSPP
 
Stagehand's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Shawangunks
Oddometer: 24,993
__________________
Unintentional psychokinesis.
Stagehand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 04:58 PM   #27
crankshaft
Guns are for pussies
 
crankshaft's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Burlingtron,VT
Oddometer: 13,974
Got started today on my local RB training loop. We had a nasty rain earlier in the week and two bridges got washed out, good thing I did the pre ride

__________________
Just say'IN
crankshaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 05:11 PM   #28
Stagehand
+/- V TDSPP
 
Stagehand's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Shawangunks
Oddometer: 24,993
Are there any roadbooks that read from bottom to top?
__________________
Unintentional psychokinesis.
Stagehand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 05:40 PM   #29
beechum1
Beastly Adventurer
 
beechum1's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: Herlong, CA. Look it up, I'll wait.
Oddometer: 7,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagehand View Post
Are there any roadbooks that read from bottom to top?
Arabic?
__________________
Rally Moto Kit /// Vendor Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dread Pendragon View Post
Mention to HogWild which way the wind is blowing where you're at, wait 20 minutes, and he'll post a picture of the intersection your at and a Google Earth route of how to get there.
beechum1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 05:41 PM   #30
crankshaft
Guns are for pussies
 
crankshaft's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Burlingtron,VT
Oddometer: 13,974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagehand View Post
Are there any roadbooks that read from bottom to top?
A Chinese one rotated 90 degrees to the right
__________________
Just say'IN
crankshaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 09:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014