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Old 07-04-2012, 11:37 AM   #2986
Happy Wanderer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post
For me the big gain with the IICE Air is that I can adjust for differing ambient temperatures...of course the Cool and Smooth are a natural progression of taming the the throttle/engine combo.

Hence I am running the IICE Air and have disconnected but left in place my BP.
The "big gain" of ambient temperature adjustment only lasts until you buy the next device which requires you to set your jumper permanently to the -10 setting. Poof. There goes your temperature bonus settings.

But maybe you won't need them anymore once the oil temp sensor is modified also.
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:08 PM   #2987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Wanderer View Post
If it replaces the existing sensor why would you bother to have two connectors? Why not unplug the existing sensor connector and just plug yours in to the connector that goes to the ECU? This would save wiring, connectors, pins, solder, add simplicity, reduce labour and cost.

No sir, I am fairly certain you may be mistaken and that the device you are selling is indeed placing one of three jumper selectable value thermistors in series with the existing sensor (which is also a thermistor) thus adding to the variable resistance in the circuit which in turn causes the ECU to calculate air temperature to a colder value than actual.
Um you do realize that we actually build these devices, right? So we do actually know what the circuit is, right?

You can be fairly certain all you want, and hold to your opinion, meanwhile what I stated is correct.

JJ
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johnjen screwed with this post 07-04-2012 at 12:37 PM
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:13 PM   #2988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjen View Post
Um you do realize that we actually build these devices, right? So we do actually know what the circuit is right?

You can be fairly certain all you want, and hold to your opinion, meanwhile what I stated is correct.

JJ
Oh sure, I realize that. So why bother with two connectors? It stands to reason that if you are "replacing" the air sensor there is no need to connect to it any longer. So why bother?

EDIT: After looking closely at all the photos PS posted I see that the circuit is configured to allow the selection of one of three thermistors and a fourth position that just reconnects the OEM sensor. So this is the "do nothing" position. Or so it appears. Without the device on my bench with my trusty multimeter I'm just going by the photos and where the traces go. So that was the reason for the two connectors. I stand corrected.

The booster plug and other devices I've played with add resistance to the circuit. Replacing the OEM sensor with a higher value thermistor achieves the same result. One device or two. Same result as far as the ECU is concerned.

Happy Wanderer screwed with this post 07-04-2012 at 12:56 PM Reason: Curiosity
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Old 07-04-2012, 01:00 PM   #2989
eatalotapeaches
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Are product related questions still allowed in here? I was attempting to install the IICE air product on my 1200 GSA, but despite filing through tons of threads and posts starting at the main link area, I still don't have a definitive answer of where this thing goes. I think it circumvents the plug residing on the opposite left side of the dongle my two fingers are pointing toward. (directly beneath the white lettering "KS"...)

Is this correct?
What are the two open inlets that I'm touching?
Is there an issue that the cover is deteriorating from the top one and the bottom one is completely open?
And finally, I ride in Mississippi where the temps are 90-100 for at least 5 months, is the -10* setting my best option during the heat or would -20* be ok?

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Old 07-04-2012, 02:56 PM   #2990
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No

Quote:
Originally Posted by eatalotapeaches View Post
Are product related questions still allowed in here? I was attempting to install the IICE air product on my 1200 GSA, but despite filing through tons of threads and posts starting at the main link area, I still don't have a definitive answer of where this thing goes. I think it circumvents the plug residing on the opposite left side of the dongle my two fingers are pointing toward. (directly beneath the white lettering "KS"...)

Is this correct?
What are the two open inlets that I'm touching?
Is there an issue that the cover is deteriorating from the top one and the bottom one is completely open?
And finally, I ride in Mississippi where the temps are 90-100 for at least 5 months, is the -10* setting my best option during the heat or would -20* be ok?

I believe [it has been sometime..] what you are pointing to is the where the evaporative recovery cannister use to be hooked to...I removed my cannister within a month of getting my bike..do replace the two rubber caps.

I submitted and Poolside posted a series of photos I took of the installation of the IICE Air on my '07 GSA...sorry but I do not have the number of that post bookmarked...perhaps someone else can post it for you. FOUND IT: #2646 [Pg 177] and there is a great picture of the intake air temp sensor in the air box in the Haynes "BMW R1200 Twins '04-'06" manual...figure 15.20 page 3.20. You disconnect the sensor wiring and plug in the two wires from the IICE Air wiring into the two wire and the plug that you just disconnected. No confusion since the IICE wires will only fit the correct sensor wires.

If you try to install it and have question send my a PM. It takes perhaps 10 mins to R&R body panels and 3 mins to install the device.
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Wallowa screwed with this post 07-04-2012 at 05:04 PM
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Old 07-04-2012, 03:20 PM   #2991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Wanderer View Post
The booster plug and other devices I've played with add resistance to the circuit. Replacing the OEM sensor with a higher value thermistor achieves the same result. One device or two. Same result as far as the ECU is concerned.
Yup.

But there is one significant difference here.
BP and other products that ADD resistance in series with the original IAT sensor can only fool the ECU to see an air temp that's LOWER than the air temperature inside the air box.
This "ICE Air" completely replaces the original IAT sensor with an NTC that sits inside the "vail" (three settings out of four).
Now the location, and hence temperature, of the ICE Air is critical to the end result.

Why? Let's take an example.
Let's say you choose the "-20" setting. Well, if the ICE Air itself is 20 deg hotter than the original IAT sensor inside the air box then the net effect is a flat zero!
Or if a -10 setting is used and again the ICE Air is mounted so that it is at a temperature that's 20 deg higher than the air temp inside the air box the the effect is +10 deg. Not what one would want or expect.

All that considered, I think it would have been prudent to mention in the ICE Air installation instructions that location of the device is absolutely critical for the desired end result.

--
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Old 07-04-2012, 03:21 PM   #2992
Wallowa
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I Missed That...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Wanderer View Post
The "big gain" of ambient temperature adjustment only lasts until you buy the next device which requires you to set your jumper permanently to the -10 setting. Poof. There goes your temperature bonus settings.

But maybe you won't need them anymore once the oil temp sensor is modified also.
Maybe I missed that and I am in error but I thought the -10 setting [Post 1121] was aimed at high ambient air temperature riding conditions...exactly what I need for how, when and where I ride my GSA. And hopefully, the other two devices will cure the tough to smoothly manage tip in and out of the throttle...

Guess I should confess...not that I expect the IICE Air to ever die, but since you need it to interface with the Cool and Smooth [yes, I really believe they will be birthed...] I bought a second IICE Air to keep in reserve.

Could you please explain the comment about the oil temp sensor...I have no idea what that refers to...thanks.
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Wallowa screwed with this post 07-04-2012 at 03:26 PM
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Old 07-04-2012, 04:53 PM   #2993
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Wanderer View Post
snip

The booster plug and other devices I've played with add resistance to the circuit. Replacing the OEM sensor with a higher value thermistor achieves the same result. One device or two. Same result as far as the ECU is concerned.
Uh no that isn't really true.

A resistor is a fixed linear device.
A thermistor is a non-fixed non-linear device.

Expecting a linear device to respond in a non-linear way isn't gunna happen.

JJ
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The farther you enter into the Truth the deeper your conviction for truth must be.
There is understanding of the world precisely to the degree that there is understanding of the Self.

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Old 07-04-2012, 05:00 PM   #2994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFinn View Post
Yup.

But there is one significant difference here.
BP and other products that ADD resistance in series with the original IAT sensor can only fool the ECU to see an air temp that's LOWER than the air temperature inside the air box.
This "ICE Air" completely replaces the original IAT sensor with an NTC that sits inside the "vail" (three settings out of four).
Now the location, and hence temperature, of the ICE Air is critical to the end result.

Why? Let's take an example.
Let's say you choose the "-20" setting. Well, if the ICE Air itself is 20 deg hotter than the original IAT sensor inside the air box then the net effect is a flat zero!
Or if a -10 setting is used and again the ICE Air is mounted so that it is at a temperature that's 20 deg higher than the air temp inside the air box the the effect is +10 deg. Not what one would want or expect.

All that considered, I think it would have been prudent to mention in the ICE Air installation instructions that location of the device is absolutely critical for the desired end result.

--
Mikko
We cover location of the sensor in these posts.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15438749
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15452060
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15453444

In short it doesn't really matter where you put the IICE Air, AS LONG AS YOU ARE MOVING, and as long as the IICE Air is in the moving ambient air stream.

JJ
__________________
The hidden harmony is found with joy, while the obvious brings indifference.
The farther you enter into the Truth the deeper your conviction for truth must be.
There is understanding of the world precisely to the degree that there is understanding of the Self.

WingMakers.com
Collected Works of the WingMakers Volume 1 pg. 590
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Old 07-04-2012, 08:26 PM   #2995
KCDakar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWzenrider View Post
So, the wiring harness were built, but not installed? Nor potting, etc...

Looks like I will be leaving on the 8th or 9th without this mod installed on my sidecar.
T'would have been nice to have it for my 7,500 mile trip. Could have really tested it out well...

Oh well.....
If you thought it would help, I would send you mine from the Kansas City area...
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Old 07-05-2012, 02:12 AM   #2996
Happy Wanderer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjen View Post
Uh no that isn't really true.

A resistor is a fixed linear device.
A thermistor is a non-fixed non-linear device.

Expecting a linear device to respond in a non-linear way isn't gunna happen.

JJ
Your desire to be more correct than correct is exemplary. But since we're nit picking, a fixed resistor actually _does_ behave in a non linear fashion when exposed to temperature extremes. But not in a useful fashion like a thermistor does for measuring temperature. Kind of off topic because there aren't any resistors in an IIce Air and sorry if I seemed to insinuate there was.

When I said "adding resistance" like the booster plug does, I meant adding the (variable) resistance of a thermistor, not a fixed resistor. I guess that was not clear.

The example I was loosely explaining is that replacing two thermistor devices in series with one of double the value by itself in the same circuit and assuming the same location of the device(s) you are going to achieve pretty much the same result. A temperature offset.

Hope that clears up what I was attempting to say.
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:47 AM   #2997
badbs101
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IICE Air and IICE Cool on 2012 Models.

I have a 2012 R1200R. I'm assuming the IICE Air provides some benefit to the '11 and '12 models as it richens up the mixture but do you expct the IICE Cool and Smooth to improve driveability in the newer models. I believe I read the newer cam heads have revised sensors and/or mapping that help smooth cruising and transitional throttle when compared to older models. I have NO technical expertise in this area so I am merely parroting what I believe I have read. I am considering purchasing the IICE Air just to get the benefits of the IICE Cool and Smooth at a later date. I already have a Accelerator Module so will skip the whole thing if you think think no additional benefit can be had on recent models by using the Cool and Smooth. Please provide a detailed answer if possible.

I've always felt fuel injection problems were killing the joy factor of newer bikes when compared to a well-tuned carburetor. It's the elephant in the room and very few people discuss it outside of the threads on this board and others. If your 3 devices can effectively simulate a perfectly-tuned carb (is a perfectly-tuned carb even possible in the real world? lol.), I will be ecstatic.

I like to compare carbs and fuel injection to digital vs analog music. In theory, analog music sounds better, but in practice, digital is more convenient and usable.

I apologize if this question has already been asked.

Sincerely,

Barry

badbs101 screwed with this post 07-05-2012 at 11:54 AM
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Old 07-05-2012, 12:04 PM   #2998
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eatalotapeaches View Post

Are product related questions still allowed in here?

I was attempting to install the IICE air product on my 1200 GSA, but despite filing through tons of threads and posts starting at the main link area, I still don't have a definitive answer of where this thing goes.

Is this correct?
What are the two open inlets that I'm touching?

Just to be sure your installation question was answered. The device you're pointing to is the fuel tank vapor recovery control valve. In your picture, the Intake Air Temperature sensor is just above and behind the vapor control valve. The temperature sensor has the same connector as the valve.

In the first post of this thread there are links to many informative posts, including Installation.

Installation of IICE Air on R1200
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...4#post16317774
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...6#post18401396
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...9#post18483559


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Old 07-05-2012, 12:08 PM   #2999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badbs101 View Post

I have a 2012 R1200R. I'm assuming the IICE Air provides some benefit to the '11 and '12 models as it richens up the mixture but do you expct the IICE Cool and Smooth to improve driveability in the newer models?

I've always felt fuel injection problems were killing the joy factor of newer bikes when compared to a well-tuned carburetor. It's the elephant in the room and very few people discuss it outside of the threads on this board and others. If your 3 devices can effectively simulate a perfectly-tuned carb (is a perfectly-tuned carb even possible in the real world? lol.), I will be ecstatic.

I like to compare carbs and fuel injection to digital vs analog music. In theory, analog music sounds better, but in practice, digital is more convenient and usable.
Hey there Barry, that's a good question. The simple answer is yes. The IICE Air absolutely improves the running of the new models. I'll try and post a more detailed answer later today.


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Old 07-05-2012, 12:17 PM   #3000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Hey there Barry, that's a good question. The simple answer is yes. The IICE Air absolutely improves the running of the new models. I'll try and post a more detailed answer later today.



I realize the IICE Air will work on the newer models because it addresses lean running but my question is about the forthcoming ICE Cool and Smooth. Will these products benefit the newer R1200's (camheads) or have the problems these devices solve been addressed by BMW software/hardware updates. I've read that BMW has improved their FI mapping/sensing on the newer models. Once again, just parroting what I have read.

Sincerely,

Barry
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