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Old 07-17-2012, 07:28 AM   #136
dashmoto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auguzt View Post
Dunno.... Did Honda ever sell a HRC kit? For the Dakar?
Remember that these people are used to pick their own race bikes and put them all (but one for their own museum) into a press.
I think there will be only one HRC team with HRC bikes. And all the other Honda bikes will be built by privateers with self-developed kits.
Don't know about their previous Dakar bikes, but Honda have a long history of selling "race kit" parts for all their proddy racers, in various 'grades' depending on what you've got to spend and how fast you want to go.

The "taking them all back to Japan and crushing them" thing is only AFAIK the recent MotoGP bikes, since they stopped selling them to people and started leasing them instead.


I think they'll adopt the 'race kit' approach for the Dakar.

I also wonder if it's this, rather than what the factory team achieves, that should have folks in Mattighofen looking worried. At the minute there's no middle ground in the orange lineup. If you've got the cash you might be able to buy a 450RR, but they are only turning out 30(?) a year, and probably don't have the capacity to do any more. If you can't get hold of one, you've got to buy an EXC/SX and go shopping at Mecasystem/whoever.

Imagine if you could go out and buy a CRF from your local Honda dealer, then keep throwing kit parts at it until you either run out of money or you end up with something which is almost the same spec Helder has. Then imagine that there's an HRC truck or two following the Dakar, full of spares just like the KTM truck.

If Honda really wanted to make a point, the middle part of the field might look very different in a few years time.


Anyway, that's enough wild conjecture for now.
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Old 07-17-2012, 07:46 AM   #137
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Personally I will be fairly surprised if the set-up is all that much more than a tidied up and slightly improved version of the current honda-europe bikes.

Probably the same rear end with maybe a better looking front tank and fairing, also engine and gearbox improvements as well.

I hope I'm wrong as I'd love to see a full Honda effort at designing a 450 rally bike.

Whatever the bike you still have to beat Coma and Despres and if either of them were riding a current fully-snagged, better supported and funded honda-europe bike then would you bet against them?

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Old 07-17-2012, 08:33 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrehy View Post
Personally I will be fairly surprised if the set-up is all that much more than a tidied up and slightly improved version of the current honda-europe bikes.

Probably the same rear end with maybe a better looking front tank and fairing, also engine and gearbox improvements as well.

I hope I'm wrong as I'd love to see a full Honda effort at designing a 450 rally bike.

Whatever the bike you still have to beat Coma and Despres and if either of them were riding a current fully-snagged, better supported and funded honda-europe bike then would you bet against them?
Just my thoughts, i dot think theyll have a true rallye bike, built from the ground up with stable fram etc. My guess is for 'just another 450 conversion' with some trick HRC parts to make the bike fast and last...
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:49 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by tehdutchie View Post
Just my thoughts, i dot think theyll have a true rallye bike, built from the ground up with stable fram etc. My guess is for 'just another 450 conversion' with some trick HRC parts to make the bike fast and last...

From Honda July 2nd, 2012.

"The prototype machine is based on the CRF450X....... Kit parts designed for use on the standard CRF450X model have also been developed and will be made available to a limited number of teams."


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Old 07-17-2012, 10:35 AM   #140
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Poor guys are going to really suffer with nasty heat that time of year!
HogWild, I'm pretty sure it's YOU that's going to make sure they suffer, regardless of the weather.
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Old 07-18-2012, 03:32 AM   #141
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You cant buy a KTM 450 rally equivalent to that of Coma or Despres. You buy a similar bike. Probably the best bike you can buy ready for rally racing but not comparable. Engine's and suspension are both in another league.

I seriously doubt Honda have built another frame, but I could be seriously wrong. For sure they will have a longer swingarm, but you can weld on a 55mm extension to a standard swingarm. Will they change the rake of the front fork? you can do so with a set of triple clamps.

But I hope I am wrong and they have built a rally bike aorund a fully modified 450x engine.

Maybe Honda is trying to get a larger following for thier offroad bikes, they are losing ground to the european dirt bikes albeit slowly.
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Old 07-18-2012, 03:47 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auguzt View Post
Dunno.... Did Honda ever sell a HRC kit? For the Dakar?
Remember that these people are used to pick their own race bikes and put them all (but one for their own museum) into a press.
I think there will be only one HRC team with HRC bikes. And all the other Honda bikes will be built by privateers with self-developed kits.
I may be wrong but I was pretty sure they did release a limited number of marathon kits for the Africa Twin.

From memory it was basically just rear tanks and body work.

Not sure they had any other semi serious PD type bikes apart from the XLV750...

Edit, I just found this old post from the resident AT guru...

Quote:
Originally Posted by atgreg View Post
Thats a 650 marathon.

Honda sold some 650's in 88-89 and some 750's in 90-91 for the production marathon class in the Dakar. they were basically a standard bike with rear tanks, a bigger main tank and a few other bits and bobs for the rally, the engine was standard. you could buy a bike ready fitted with all the gear or you could buy the kit and fit it yourself. occasiaonally a kit comes up for sale in europs

Im sure for the right person they are worth quite a lot as not many were sold and are something special, I'd kill to get my hands on one of the bikes or a kit.

650 marathon







750 marathon




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Old 07-18-2012, 06:09 AM   #143
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This image just turned up on Javier Pizzolito's twitter account. My spanish sucks though



"Buenas! Ultimos detalles!Terminando de cargar todo! @desafiolitoral1 #5 #6 @hondaargentina ‪#elretornoalaspistas‬ pic.twitter.com/6uFRrOKY"
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:53 AM   #144
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Rake?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie66 View Post
Will they change the rake of the front fork? you can do so with a set of triple clamps.

But I hope I am wrong
I feel you may be on that one...not sure if you meant rake, That would be pretty strange to bore your fork tube holes and steering pin at different angles. I imagine it would feel pretty weird too.

Have you ever seen it done?
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:21 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Brodovitch View Post
This image just turned up on Javier Pizzolito's twitter account. My spanish sucks though



"Buenas! Ultimos detalles!Terminando de cargar todo! @desafiolitoral1 #5 #6 @hondaargentina ‪#elretornoalaspistas‬ pic.twitter.com/6uFRrOKY"
It just says that they have finished loading and he is off to the disafo litoral or whatever it is called that Cyril Depres is doing in Argentina that starts this Sunday 22nd July !! No 5!
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:00 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilbara View Post
I feel you may be on that one...not sure if you meant rake, That would be pretty strange to bore your fork tube holes and steering pin at different angles. I imagine it would feel pretty weird too.

Have you ever seen it done?
Cheers
Pilbara
Some choppers have the steering stem and forks a different angles, but I think Aussie66 was refering to mounting the steering stem in an eccentric as some sportbikes do to give different rake.



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Old 07-18-2012, 01:23 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tHEtREV View Post
I may be wrong but I was pretty sure they did release a limited number of marathon kits for the Africa Twin.

From memory it was basically just rear tanks and body work.

Not sure they had any other semi serious PD type bikes apart from the XLV750...

Edit, I just found this old post from the resident AT guru...
As far as I know Honda did sell only Africa Twin complete with the kit, just like
Ktm 690RR or 450RR. It could be that after those 2 AT series, they had some
spare changes left in their warehouse, but that's all...
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Old 07-18-2012, 02:35 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilbara View Post
I feel you may be on that one...not sure if you meant rake, That would be pretty strange to bore your fork tube holes and steering pin at different angles. I imagine it would feel pretty weird too.

Have you ever seen it done?
Cheers
Pilbara
Any change in rake would be done in the manufacture of the frame. Consider that the CRF 450 R has a rake of 26.52*, whereas the the CRF 450 X has a rake of 27.35*. I do know for a fact that the frames that JCR uses in Baja are straight from HCR for that purpose only, but the rake would be a closely guarded secret. I do know from campfire stories that the first prototypes of the XR 500 that were tested for racing in Baja were hacked, whacked, and welded to match the rake of the Husky at the time. I would think that a slightly different rake angle is completely likely.

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Old 07-18-2012, 03:58 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilbara View Post
I feel you may be on that one...not sure if you meant rake, That would be pretty strange to bore your fork tube holes and steering pin at different angles. I imagine it would feel pretty weird too.
Sounds like it would work a little like a steering damper?

Whilst it would not have the 'shock absorber' functions, it would always want to align the front wheel straight, and require increasing amounts of force required for further turn angle.

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Old 07-18-2012, 11:17 PM   #150
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Rake is what i meant and yes I have seen it done on a race bike (GP125) with concentric rings. I think some just showed a diagram a few posts back.
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