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Old 08-07-2012, 02:45 PM   #61
crofrog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
f heat, both ambient and caloric.

I could careless what anyone wears but it seems a little hypocritical if an ATGATT motorcyclist also rides road bicycles without similar levels of protection. And if they do, at what point does their motorcycle gear become a costume similar to what the "pirate crowd" wears. If protection is so important why not on bicycles too.

Of course if there are no road bicyclists who are also ATGATT motorcyclists, my question is mute, but that's not my suspicion.

There are some big differences. The fastest I'd ever go on a road bike (around 50) is about the slowest I go on a street bike. Wearing the gear on motorcycle doesn't cost me anything except a little discomfort. When riding a bicycle I'd not be able to make it 5 miles little lone 20 to 100mi wearing leathers on a road bike.

I've seen some nasty bike crashes though where i'm sure people wish they where wearing gear.

At the end of the day I don't wear protection on bicycles because it doesn't exist... I'd love to see some kevlar stretch bib shorts and jerseys and better gloves.
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Old 08-07-2012, 03:02 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
Possibly not much comparsion between moutain biking and motorcycles but I don't see much difference between road biking and motorcycles. Helmets aside, most ATGATT advocates include the need for skin protection against road rash.

So my question should have been better asked by sticking with riders of road bicycles. All the serious road bikers I see are in Lycra or something similar with almost as much skin exposed as covered and helmets that provide no more protection than motorcycle half-helmets.

I totally understand the need for lightweight while racing or less coverage because of heat, both ambient and caloric.

I could careless what anyone wears but it seems a little hypocritical if an ATGATT motorcyclist also rides road bicycles without similar levels of protection. And if they do, at what point does their motorcycle gear become a costume similar to what the "pirate crowd" wears. If protection is so important why not on bicycles too.

Of course if there are no road bicyclists who are also ATGATT motorcyclists, my question is mute, but that's not my suspicion.
I'm either ATTGATT or MOTGATT on my motos. I'll substitute kevlar jeans/regular jeans for riding pants if I'm running errands on the bike.

The biggest difference between motos and pushies is the engine. Moto riding is essentially a sedentary activity. Riding pushies is an aerobic one.

Road riding? No way am I riding in armor. I get soaked thru in the bib shorts and jersey I'm wearing without adding armored anything.

...and yes, I have wrecked on a bicycle. It effing hurts.

M
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Old 08-07-2012, 03:41 PM   #63
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I've crashed road bicycles numerous times wearing classic bike gear and you do get scraped up, but generally you are not going 60 mph and most bicycles don't weigh 500 lbs. Bicycle riders tend to avoid heavy traffic areas even more than motorcyclists--for example I would rarely ride a bicycle in the fast lane of a divided highway or city street, unless I had to make a left turn. Frankly, road rash is the least of your concerns on a motorcycle--it won't matter if you're all scraped up if your head is squashed.

But, I get your point. The thing is everything in life is a compromise. You can never be perfectly protected, and you have to wear whatever gear allows you to operate that vehicle in a safe and enjoyable manner. Really, we should all be wearing double harnesses and full coverage helmets in our cars, and we would be significantly safer. For that matter, lots of people fall and are killed or injured in bathrooms, but I would prefer to take a shower without a helmet on.
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Old 08-07-2012, 04:36 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Wuwei View Post
Bicycle riders tend to avoid heavy traffic areas even more than motorcyclists--for example I would rarely ride a bicycle in the fast lane of a divided highway or city street, unless I had to make a left turn. Frankly, road rash is the least of your concerns on a motorcycle--it won't matter if you're all scraped up if your head is squashed.
And in the same light cruiser riders, who are notorious for wearing little to no gear, rarely ride real fast, push it in the twisties, do track days, are stunters, or ride off-road where drops/crashes occur more frequently.

I agree 100% on the highlighted text above. I'm the idiot that started the thread "Is ATGATT Overrated?" mainly because of exactly what you wrote.

I've been down a few times, albeit at relatively low speeds but I have experienced significant road rash...sure it hurst but in the big picture it's not that bad. I don't know maybe my pain tolerance is higher but the way some guys talk it sounds like they'd rather be dead that suffer road rash.

What I fear is blunt force trauma to the pelvis, abdomen, chest, flank, or head and a spinal cord injury. The only gear that really helps to reduce any of those is a good helmet.

To answer the OP's question, boots, jeans, gloves, and helmet...98% of my riding is in temps from 50-100F. If it's colder a jacket/riding coat, overpants and always good rain gear packed away but ready to don if necessary.
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Old 08-07-2012, 06:50 PM   #65
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My basic theory is: I'm at least a semi-skilled MC rider. I'm not dressing in case *I* screw up, I'm dressing in case someone else screws up for me.

I've crashed on bicycles. It effing hurts. If I'm not having to pedal my ass around you're darn tootin I'm wearing something that mitigates the road rash as well as impact I feel!

M
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:17 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
My basic theory is: I'm at least a semi-skilled MC rider. I'm not dressing in case *I* screw up, I'm dressing in case someone else screws up for me.

I've crashed on bicycles. It effing hurts. If I'm not having to pedal my ass around you're darn tootin I'm wearing something that mitigates the road rash as well as impact I feel!

M
Yet you still choose to ride a bicycle without gear even though it's just as likely that "someone else screws up" for you and causes you to go down.

As another poster cited, he doesn't ecxeed 50mph on his bicycle but the cars that outweigh him by 50x likely pass within mere feet of him (in my area they do) at speeds well in excess of 50 mph.

It almost sounds like since your not pedaling and burning calories creating tons of body heat it becomes an issue of convience to dress for safey on a bike as opposed to a bicycle.

I'm not debating with you or anyone else just pointing out that we all make choices about our safety gear and as a non ATGATT (but always helmeted) rider it gets old listening to the ATGATT nazis ridiculing those of us who don't wear ALL the gear (whatever they define it as), and who in other activities with very similar risks like road bicycling, don't wear gear themselves.

Live and let live.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:27 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
Yet you still choose to ride a bicycle without gear even though it's just as likely that "someone else screws up" for you and causes you to go down.

As another poster cited, he doesn't ecxeed 50mph on his bicycle but the cars that outweigh him by 50x likely pass within mere feet of him (in my area they do) at speeds well in excess of 50 mph.

It almost sounds like since your not pedaling and burning calories creating tons of body heat it becomes an issue of convience to dress for safey on a bike as opposed to a bicycle.

I'm not debating with you or anyone else just pointing out that we all make choices about our safety gear and as a non ATGATT (but always helmeted) rider it gets old listening to the ATGATT nazis ridiculing those of us who don't wear ALL the gear (whatever they define it as), and who in other activities with very similar risks like road bicycling, don't wear gear themselves.

Live and let live.

Show me bicycling armour that will work when riding a road bike and I'd be all over it (not downhill mtb stuff) there are different ways to get hurt everything is risk assessment right. If I wore what I did on the moto on the bike I wouldn't be able to worry about crashing because i'd die of heat stroke.

I think you're a fool for not armouring up on the moto. It makes the ride better, it makes the ride safer and it add's performance. Ever dragged a knee without pucks I'm guessing it wouldn't be allot of fun. I do care allot more about abrasion than impact personally on the street. Although good imapct doesn't really take away anything and is nice to have.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:44 PM   #68
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ATG needs to be some kind of armoured or padded clothing covering all of you. not something considered as normal everyday clothes.

i.e even if i had my lid, jacket, back protector, gloves and boots on with jeans it wouldnt be ATG because i would need to put my kevlar jeans or textile pants on

i dont fully gear up around town, always my lid and maybe jacket and gloves if its not super warm outside. i always wear jeans though, never shorts or flipflops or anythin cos i dont have any lol with a 30mph speed limits and traffic lowering that speed even more i wouldnt be much worse if i came off the moto than i would be coming off my bicycle.

to be fair i had a very serious crash where i hit a car at 60-70mph and wasnt wearing any proper bike gear apart from a lid (had only started riding) and i didnt do any major lasting harm to myself.
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Old 08-08-2012, 03:57 AM   #69
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Anyone who thinks they can skill or think their way out of any potential accident is IMHO, delusional. Deer, sudden left turner, diesel fuel puddle are all out of your control.

I wear all the stuff, exception is sometimes Carhartt jeans with kevlar and T pro knee pads underneath.

The St. Paul motocop who escorted the funeral procession for my GF's father last week wore his summer uniform, gloves, boots and full face helmet. He did some very aggressive riding.
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:09 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post

I'm not debating with you or anyone else just pointing out that we all make choices about our safety gear and as a non ATGATT (but always helmeted) rider it gets old listening to the ATGATT nazis ridiculing those of us who don't wear ALL the gear (whatever they define it as), and who in other activities with very similar risks like road bicycling, don't wear gear themselves.

Live and let live.
Yeah, what blk-betty said!
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:41 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
I think you're a fool for not armouring up on the moto. Ever dragged a knee without pucks I'm guessing it wouldn't be allot of fun. I do care allot more about abrasion than impact personally on the street. Although good imapct doesn't really take away anything and is nice to have.
Thanks for calling me a fool.

I won't resort to name calling but I could say the same about anyone who rides a road bicycle on streets with traffic or speed limits in excess of 35 mph. Wonder what the statistic is of the percentage of bicyclists killed per mileage ridden compared to motocyclists. Would you feel safe on your motorcycle if your speed was governed to 1/2 the speed of auto/truck traffic?

I'm betting riding a bicycle on roads designed for cars is just as if not more dangerous than riding a motorcycle where the motorcycle matches the speed of surrounding traffic. So if the bicycle riding community were seriously concerned about safety they would develop appropriate gear. Then again, if no one would buy it there is no need to design and build it which explains why it doesn't exist.

Nope, never dragged a knee. I don't ride that aggressivley as thus my choice of gear.
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Old 08-08-2012, 06:41 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
Yet you still choose to ride a bicycle without gear even though it's just as likely that "someone else screws up" for you and causes you to go down.

As another poster cited, he doesn't ecxeed 50mph on his bicycle but the cars that outweigh him by 50x likely pass within mere feet of him (in my area they do) at speeds well in excess of 50 mph.

It almost sounds like since your not pedaling and burning calories creating tons of body heat it becomes an issue of convience to dress for safey on a bike as opposed to a bicycle.

I'm not debating with you or anyone else just pointing out that we all make choices about our safety gear and as a non ATGATT (but always helmeted) rider it gets old listening to the ATGATT nazis ridiculing those of us who don't wear ALL the gear (whatever they define it as), and who in other activities with very similar risks like road bicycling, don't wear gear themselves.

Live and let live.
You're right and you're wrong. I typically wear a base layer and gloves when riding in groups or racing. Used to wear a pair of shorts with the pad chopped out racing crits.

That's about the extent of ATTGATT racing crits. The extra layer lets your outer garment slide against the inner instead of your skin if/when you go down.

...but you're being deliberately obtuse. Road cycling and road motorcycle riding are completely different types of activities.

M
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Old 08-08-2012, 07:21 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Wuwei View Post
The thing is everything in life is a compromise. You can never be perfectly protected, and you have to wear whatever gear allows you to operate that vehicle in a safe and enjoyable manner. Really, we should all be wearing double harnesses and full coverage helmets in our cars, and we would be significantly safer. For that matter, lots of people fall and are killed or injured in bathrooms, but I would prefer to take a shower without a helmet on.
Could not agree with you more.

Yes, I am afraid of road rash.

http://www.rockthegear.org/index.php...oadrash_queen/

If you are not after reading that, then good luck. Me, I'm a Hi-Viz Power Ranger and I like it that way.
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:02 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by djg View Post
Anyone who thinks they can skill or think their way out of any potential accident is IMHO, delusional. Deer, sudden left turner, diesel fuel puddle are all out of your control.

.
Deer = get to know the roads you travel well and where they tend to cross (pretty east to spot their trails) and you can cut the risk of Deer by a good 3/4. Keep alert to things that change their patterns (new housing developments, the season, what's planted in what field = you get the idea)

Sudden left turners = nothing sudden about them. Expect it and allow reaction time/space for it.

Diesel fuels = Best thing I ever did was buy lightly tinted polarized lenses. They allow you to spot slick spots in the road due to the oil-like prism effect it gives off. Tar snakes that are heated enough to be slick, do the same thing. (as do reg. oil and gas slicks)

I.M.H.O. if you are riding within your level of skill and observant as well as clued in on a few tricks...even the things you name above are not unavoidable.
There's nothing delusional about knowing what you can and can't handle.

Now, if you subscribe to having to blast down roads you hardly know, way in excess of the speed limits....I'll admit that the above things you mention, might be a little hard to avoid.

Just curious = can you see the difference between skill and delusion yet?
If you also ride when your head isn't 100% in it....you're also asking to bite it.
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Old 08-09-2012, 12:36 AM   #75
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I have a guess that you are a fairly younger rider? You sound like an awesome, omnipotent rider on top of your game. Great for you. But, here's the deal.... Many of us don't ride around housing developments and familiar fields close to home. Many of us do overland, multiday, adventure trips going into locations unknown.
When you're traversing a deep rut and need a dab of speed to loft a heavy KLR up and over but, since you've never been in N.E. California before on this particular forest road (for example) you shoot right over an embankment, plop on your side and shatter your tibia... Uhhhh yeah, it happens like that. It's a big world my friend and I have seen bigger men than you eat shit from time to time.


I'm 45, been riding since my late teens.
I'm not only a daily commuter (all-weather in Pa. and that means snow and ice) I also log lots of long distance rides whenever my crummy retail job allows it. (around 10-14,000 miles per year)
I've also been down on the road several times and will say this, the things that have put me down; will never put me down again. (I learned from the experiences)

I guess the main difference I see between the two of us, is that (based on the comment I highlighted) I don't ride carelessly into the unknown, beyond what I know my abilities to be.
If I want to ride like a bat out of hell, down a logging road or other area, I'll do a pre-ride first. There's no reason to find yourself in the situation you describe unless, as the expression goes "fools rush in"...
I.M.H.O. there is no such thing as an unknown/surprise hazard the way I ride.
I'm sure what I describe might not sound like fun to all you adrenaline junkies out there but, if you are aware of there being hazards first (like what you describe) you can turn it into a fun event by taking it on with skill and not being surprised by it. (and shattering your tibisa)


I've eaten my share of shit (while going through a long learning curve) but, now ride with enough care to avoid as much shit eating as possible. I still ride spiritedly but, only on roads or areas I know well. To do otherwise invites seconds of eating shit. (that's the difference between skill and recklessness) Why eat shit twice when you didn't like it the first time?

My definition of "skill" is knowing what you can and can't handle.
If you can't handle the type of surprise you mention and still ride so fast that you can't handle that type of situational surprise = you're riding beyond your skill level and deserve to eat shit. (just like I deserved to eat shit when I fucked up in my past)

Skill = the difference between delusional and applicable.

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