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Old 08-08-2012, 07:37 AM   #3046
Wallowa
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Sooo..What Does It "Show"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
AFR is relatively easy to measure with a wideband O2.

Here is a plot of AFR with and without an IAT shifting device set at 20C. It can be measured in Open Loop. The top plot is without the IAT shift and the bottom is with 20C shift. The red dotted line is at 14.7 the blue dotted line at 13.8. Trying to measure it after the bike has run Closed Loop is harder.


I am clueless but it seems to show with a -20 IAT shift the AFR is more consistent in the 15-14:1 AFR [?]
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:10 AM   #3047
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I think my dyno butt is more accurate than that graph since I can feel it when I ride. While overall top speed feels the same, just the acceleration in every gear in GREATLY improved. It reminds me of the sensation I got when I changed the turbo on my Jetta Tdi from factory stock to the bigger European turbo found in the next generation engine. While the turbo pushes more air this little gizmo just pushes more fuel ... I love it!
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:32 AM   #3048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post
I am clueless but it seems to show with a -20 IAT shift the AFR is more consistent in the 15-14:1 AFR [?]
Good questions. In the upper plot, it shows what my 1150RT engine does with a reset motronic and E10 fuel. It runs leaner than 14.7.

The lower plot shows what happens after I shift the temp by -20C. The whole Open loop curve gets about 6% richer. That's what the device is supposed to do.

In the little plots on the right, you can see one set of data is centered around 15:1 and the other (lower) is centered around 14:1. That means the shift made the Open Loop richer.

You can easily see these effects by running the test. Once you Close the Loop and let the O2 sensor get into the act, things change.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:52 AM   #3049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Here is a plot of AFR with and without an IAT shifting device set at 20C. It can be measured in Open Loop. The top plot is without the IAT shift and the bottom is with 20C shift.
I guess in this case "one picture is worth about million words".
With all the talk in this thread, lot of it quite vague and rather marketing like, this picture from Roger is the best and most clear demonstration of what a -20deg IAT offset really does!

I was always little annoyed that none of the various IAT offset device vendors on this forum never provided a plot like this.
Actually showing what their product does.
Instead everyone resorted to providing a lengthy verbal infomercial.

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Old 08-08-2012, 09:49 AM   #3050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFinn View Post
I guess in this case "one picture is worth about million words".
With all the talk in this thread, lot of it quite vague and rather marketing like, this picture from Roger is the best and most clear demonstration of what a -20deg IAT offset really does!

I was always little annoyed that none of the various IAT offset device vendors on this forum never provided a plot like this.
Actually showing what their product does.
Instead everyone resorted to providing a lengthy verbal infomercial.

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Thanks.

These plots were taken over my test ride course with the Motronic reset and the O2 sensor unplugged so there were no Adaptive Values to confuse things. It's interesting in the upper plot to see that it's leaner than 14.7:1, due to the 4% leaning effect of the E10 I run. But as you say the shift is clear, especially so in the little histogram plots.

After you close the loop, this is a much more difficult effect to demonstrate.
RB
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Old 08-08-2012, 10:18 AM   #3051
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poolside... is there a way to do diagnostics on the component itself to verify its performing as designed? I mean what if his is just somehow flipped back to the setting that does not alter the throughput signal? It shouldn't be too hard to verify the device is working.

Does anyone know if BMW service has a way to verify the bike onboard computer is responding to input as designed?

Just curios but it seems like a logical way to verify things.
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:58 AM   #3052
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Ok here's a hint for all you guys.

Throttle tip in. That is where this device has a demonstrable effect (mostly).

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Old 08-08-2012, 04:30 PM   #3053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by '05Train View Post

Yeah, I'm unclear on that, as I've been tuning bikes and cars at part-throttle for years.

The IICE Air works during open-loop only, which means that you ought to be able to see the effect it's having on AFR/Lambda at WOT, as well as at part throttle.
That is true, it would register at a wide open throttle dyno run. But from what I'm reading that isn't what you're after, Train.

I'm reading your previous post, link here, and here's what you say in there:

"...a little smoother from takeoff.."
"...the bike certainly felt punchier.."
"...55mph in 6th gear felt smoother.."
"...Noticeably less stumble when I blip for downshifts.."
"...the motor seemed both stronger and smoother.."

These partial-throttle dynamic events aren't really measurable on the typical dyno setup.


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Old 08-08-2012, 06:39 PM   #3054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post

The lower plot shows what happens after I shift the temp by -20C.
The whole Open loop curve gets about 6% richer. That's what the device is supposed to do.
Yes, that's the thing Roger. A lambda cell (O2 sensor) is good for measuring long term trends, provided the other variables are constrained. But a long term trend isn't what we're after.

You can't feel a long term trend. What you can feel, and what people report feeling, is the riding pleasure derived from dynamic events. Specifically, what your butt dyno feels is the first derivative of those dynamic events.

Good thing too, because tools like O2 sensors and dynos don't do a good job of measuring them.



p.s.: I certainly appreciate the graphs you post up.


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Old 08-08-2012, 06:42 PM   #3055
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
That is true, it would register at a wide open throttle dyno run. But from what I'm reading that isn't what you're after, Train.

I'm reading your previous post, link here, and here's what you say in there:

"...a little smoother from takeoff.."
"...the bike certainly felt punchier.."
"...55mph in 6th gear felt smoother.."
"...Noticeably less stumble when I blip for downshifts.."
"...the motor seemed both stronger and smoother.."

These partial-throttle dynamic events aren't really measurable on the typical dyno setup.

An eddy-brake Dynojet will most certainly measure part-throttle performance, and either a wideband O2 sensor or exhaust sniffer will certainly measure AFR/Lambda while that's happening.

I'm not getting the defensiveness. Roger's datalogging clearly shows your product is working (and just saved me a few hours of dyno time). No one's attacking you, no one's questioning your product. It works, and it's measurable.

You should be ecstatic about this.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:07 PM   #3056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by '05Train View Post

An eddy-brake Dynojet will most certainly measure part-throttle performance, and either a wideband O2 sensor or exhaust sniffer will certainly measure AFR/Lambda while that's happening.

I'm not getting the defensiveness. Roger's datalogging clearly shows your product is working (and just saved me a few hours of dyno time). No one's attacking you, no one's questioning your product. It works, and it's measurable.

You should be ecstatic about this.
I am. I am very happy about the possibility. But I'm a little less happy to have misinformation, even if it is in my favor. You know, otherwise I'm just engaging in marketing hoopla.

I'm sure glad to have the O2 sensor graphs that Roger posts up. When we get to the IICE Smooth product, his O2 Sensor graphs will be even more valuable. But a couple of the interpretations of those graphs are a little misleading, and I think it makes sense to comment on that. An O2 sensor is a great tool for constrained-input long term measurement of exhaust oxygen. Beyond that, it's a blunt instrument.

I am also very happy about the possibility of independent instrumented dynamic testing. However a typical dyno isn't going to readily provide that information. Information that your butt dyno is exquisitely calibrated for.

Lastly, can we leave the notion of defensiveness out of this, since you are merely reporting your own perceptions? Which I'm happy to have, provided they're limited to the IICE Air performance.


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Old 08-08-2012, 08:10 PM   #3057
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According to Innovate Motorsports, its LC-1 is fast enough to respond to each exhaust pulse as it travels past the wideband O2 sensor. That is more sensitive than any butt-dyno.

In any case, I'm not taking a position on what others do. Just responding to interesting questions when I have data.

I remain interested in your descriptions of Cool and Smooth when you have them ready.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:11 PM   #3058
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post

According to Innovate Motorsports, its LC-1 is fast enough to respond to each exhaust pulse as it travels past the wideband O2 sensor. That is more sensitive than any butt-dyno.

In any case, I'm not taking a position on what others do.
Sure you are, you are taking the position that marketing info from Innovate Motorsports is correct.


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Old 08-08-2012, 08:20 PM   #3059
roger 04 rt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DriftDragon View Post
poolside... is there a way to do diagnostics on the component itself to verify its performing as designed? I mean what if his is just somehow flipped back to the setting that does not alter the throughput signal? It shouldn't be too hard to verify the device is working.

Does anyone know if BMW service has a way to verify the bike onboard computer is responding to input as designed?

Just curios but it seems like a logical way to verify things.
Actually there's a really nice product you can buy called the GS-911. For 1150s and 1200s it sends real time values from the Motronic or BMS-K to your computer. It is very easy then to see the various temperature shifts.
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:39 PM   #3060
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DriftDragon View Post
poolside... is there a way to do diagnostics on the component itself to verify its performing as designed? I mean what if his is just somehow flipped back to the setting that does not alter the throughput signal? It shouldn't be too hard to verify the device is working.

Does anyone know if BMW service has a way to verify the bike onboard computer is responding to input as designed?

Just curios but it seems like a logical way to verify things.
Let me ++ on the GS-911 as a means of checking the operation of the IICE Air. But if you are handy with a DVM and know what you are looking for you can check the resistance of the output as well.

But let me add that these units are encased in carbomite and short of a fire or bomb going off there is no way they are going to "somehow flipped back to the setting that does not alter the throughput signal"… (just kidding about the carbomite but it might as well be…)

JJ
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