ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Fluff > Shiny things
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 14 votes, 4.21 average. Display Modes
Old 09-01-2012, 06:03 AM   #1021
natedog39 OP
New Sheriff in town
 
natedog39's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: ravena new york
Oddometer: 6,232
I've been using the bus enough lately to prevent any real work from being done but that's ok, knocking on the door of 4,000 purely towing miles since June.

After weighing the beast I've been thinking a little more about what will happen when the new engine goes in.

Early on sombody here mentioned how the weight distribution would change after moving the rear axle back.
Also quite a bit of cantilever weight was removed when the old A/C unit was removed.

When I weighed the bus and camper the weight slip gave me axle weights as well as the total weight, as of right now the front end is putting 6,400 lbs on the ground.
The front axle is rated for 6,000 lbs
400 lbs doesn't concern me much right now, it would if the tires were overloaded but they're max load is 7,100 lbs.

An 8.3 Cummins weighs at least 700 lbs more than a 5.9 and at that point the tires will be overloaded.
That does concern me.

I was planning to replace the front springs anyway but I guess I'll be looking for a used 8,000 lb axle as well.
255-70-22.5 G rated tires have a capacity of over 10,000 lbs and are just an inch taller than the 8R-19.5 tires on it now.
That will leave me with spare wheels and tires for the rear too, that's a win there.
Not sure where I'll get 22.5 aluminum wheels though without breaking the bank.
__________________

2014 FE 501
2012 990Adv

Team Ghetto does a hot lap of America

natedog39 screwed with this post 09-01-2012 at 06:15 AM
natedog39 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 07:18 AM   #1022
MTrider16
Ridin' in MT
 
MTrider16's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2006
Location: Eastern Montana
Oddometer: 1,497
What was the weight on the rear axel? You can only put as much torque on the ground as you have weight holding the axel down.

David
__________________
'13 VFR1200D, '13 XVS950, '09 F800GS, 07 CRF250X
Riding roads in Montana - Big Sky Country
www.mtrider16.smugmug.com
Mountains, Moose, and Miles: a Montanan's Alcan Highway Story
Continental Divide and More: the "No Dust" Tour of WY and MT
MTrider16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 07:20 AM   #1023
djb_rh
Gnarly Adventurer
 
djb_rh's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Oddometer: 485
What was the rear weight situation? Why not consider moving the rear forward and/or the hitch back to lever some more off the front? That's what we do in the HDT world with 5ers and hauling decks and Smart cars on the back.


--Donnie
__________________
My blog
djb_rh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 08:52 AM   #1024
Patrick46
visionary
 
Patrick46's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Oregon Coastline
Oddometer: 2,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by djb_rh View Post
What was the rear weight situation? Why not consider moving the rear forward and/or the hitch back to lever some more off the front? That's what we do in the HDT world with 5ers and hauling decks and Smart cars on the back.


--Donnie
Moving the rear axle foreward would be a TON more work then just relocating the 5th wheel hitch.

Actually, this is why the 5th wheels can slide on semi tractors, is so you can move the weight around to your liking.

but YES, that's exactally what I'd do too.
__________________
"Good Times & Good Friends Make Life Better"

www.artworks-unlimited.com
Patrick46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 12:43 PM   #1025
natedog39 OP
New Sheriff in town
 
natedog39's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: ravena new york
Oddometer: 6,232
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
What was the weight on the rear axel? You can only put as much torque on the ground as you have weight holding the axel down.

David
7,700 lbs with the camper hooked up, which has a tongue weight of aproximately 2,500 lbs.
__________________

2014 FE 501
2012 990Adv

Team Ghetto does a hot lap of America
natedog39 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 12:54 PM   #1026
natedog39 OP
New Sheriff in town
 
natedog39's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: ravena new york
Oddometer: 6,232
Quote:
Originally Posted by djb_rh View Post
What was the rear weight situation? Why not consider moving the rear forward and/or the hitch back to lever some more off the front? That's what we do in the HDT world with 5ers and hauling decks and Smart cars on the back.


--Donnie
I doubt the front tires/axle are overloaded under any circumstance with an HDT. I also spent considerable time lengthening the wheelbase, there's no way I'm going backwards.
Also remember that I also use this thing without the camper.

Changing the front axle won't be too bad anyway, 8,000 lb springs are 3 inches wide (same as whats on it now) as long as the center to center distance is the same I can use the existing hanger brackets.
No problemo.
__________________

2014 FE 501
2012 990Adv

Team Ghetto does a hot lap of America
natedog39 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 12:57 PM   #1027
DakarNick
Swabee
 
DakarNick's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Parker, Colorado
Oddometer: 6,520
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick46 View Post
Moving the rear axle foreward would be a TON more work then just relocating the 5th wheel hitch.

Actually, this is why the 5th wheels can slide on semi tractors, is so you can move the weight around to your liking.

but YES, that's exactally what I'd do too.
Of course it's more work but it's one of two options. I heard semi trailers can have around 10,000 pounds of pin weight. That needs to be over the rear axles. On an HDT and Nate's truck the pin weights are lower and can be cantilevered off the back to take weight off the front axle.

Nate, how far (in inches) back is the center of your hitch to center of your rear axle?
__________________
'06 KTM 950 Adventure S
'12 Ram 2500, Cummins, 6-speed auto, Laramie Longhorn, RamBox
Must be part of your super-secret double-naught spy work with your low-level FEMA clearance and (snicker) Texas Security License, yes?
DakarNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 07:00 PM   #1028
natedog39 OP
New Sheriff in town
 
natedog39's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: ravena new york
Oddometer: 6,232
Quote:
Originally Posted by DakarNick View Post
Of course it's more work but it's one of two options. I heard semi trailers can have around 10,000 pounds of pin weight. That needs to be over the rear axles. On an HDT and Nate's truck the pin weights are lower and can be cantilevered off the back to take weight off the front axle.

Nate, how far (in inches) back is the center of your hitch to center of your rear axle?
8 inches, and that's where it's stayin!
__________________

2014 FE 501
2012 990Adv

Team Ghetto does a hot lap of America
natedog39 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 12:57 PM   #1029
djb_rh
Gnarly Adventurer
 
djb_rh's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Oddometer: 485
Quote:
Originally Posted by natedog39 View Post
I doubt the front tires/axle are overloaded under any circumstance with an HDT. I also spent considerable time lengthening the wheelbase, there's no way I'm going backwards.
Also remember that I also use this thing without the camper.

Changing the front axle won't be too bad anyway, 8,000 lb springs are 3 inches wide (same as whats on it now) as long as the center to center distance is the same I can use the existing hanger brackets.
No problemo.
Just to clarify (I'm not trying to convince you, just getting facts straight), I'm talking mostly about HDTs being converted to private RV title and used to pull 5ers. Back when that practice first became en vogue, most folks were singling the HDTs. They were also choosing the biggest cab they could get for the room. And they ultimately gravitated toward Volvos for a variety of reasons. But Volvos are on the nose-heavy side for HDTs. And most folks early on were singling the rear axles out (that's less common today, but still done). And many started building hauling decks and putting Smart cars on the deck sideways between the cab and trailer. Even before the Smart car thing happened, though, most were putting the hitch as far back as they could just to help improve the ride quality since the rear suspension was never near fully loaded even with the heaviest of 5ers (6k pin weight range).

EVEN THEN, with that amount of leverage, if you singled mid or short, and had a Smart on a big steel deck, most Volvos were perilously close if not overweight on the front axle. Many folks were singling short or mid so the truck would turn as tight as possible. That was a holdover from the earlier folks NOT using Volvos, however. The Volvo was the truck many gravitated to BECAUSE it turns so well already compared to other trucks. But even folks singling long found that unless they extended the frame and REALLY put the pin way far back, they were still overweight on the front. So they tried that. And many found it worked REALLY well to have the pin further back by a lot (six feet is not uncommon, though some have gone eight or more). Off-tracking is reduced by a lot. But the best part is you can back the trailer a LOT better, which is an issue for a lot of the folks using these because they live in it full time and visit a lot of national parks and such.

These days most folks have simply figured out that the easy button is to just leave the truck tandem in the rear. Build a deck that's 5-10k in weight by itself. Add three feet in frame length to the back and mount your hitch there. Then you have room for a Smart or a couple motorcycles or a golf cart or whatever. Folks who want room for a "real" car have left the wheelbase alone and simply gone even further out the back with the frame, but things get weird as you approach that six foot number, I think. But it's been done.

But obviously the bus isn't an HDT, either. I'd think with 2500 in pin weight you could go back another foot or two with the hitch with no problem, but I'm not sure that would get your front axle weight where you want it anyway. *shrug*

I threw it out as an option in case the front axle upgrade doesn't end up as easy as you thought, mostly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DakarNick View Post
Of course it's more work but it's one of two options. I heard semi trailers can have around 10,000 pounds of pin weight. That needs to be over the rear axles. On an HDT and Nate's truck the pin weights are lower and can be cantilevered off the back to take weight off the front axle.

Nate, how far (in inches) back is the center of your hitch to center of your rear axle?
Nick, a single tandem axle is typically 20k pounds. So dual tandems are 40k. So it's not uncommon for commercial trailers to have a 30k pin weight. A normal US commercial truck with a single steer axle, two drive axles, and a dual tandem trailer has a GVWR of 80k pounds.

So with even the heaviest of 5er trailers having 6-7k in pin weight, it's totally okay to move it back a good bit, even singled.

I'm on my second HDT with a frame stretch out the rear and hitch at the back, FWIW.


--Donnie
__________________
My blog
djb_rh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 02:24 PM   #1030
Hardware02
Beastly Adventurer
 
Hardware02's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: The Rock
Oddometer: 3,087
Donnie, do you have pics of your setup? (maybe it's already somewhere on this site and I've missed it)
__________________
"These instructions are at our present level of
knowledge. Legal requirements do not exist.
Technical issues subject to change."
Hardware02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 03:20 PM   #1031
djb_rh
Gnarly Adventurer
 
djb_rh's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Oddometer: 485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardware02 View Post
Donnie, do you have pics of your setup? (maybe it's already somewhere on this site and I've missed it)
The current truck just has a steel flatbed with the hitch in the back. The previous truck, which I got rid of when I no longer needed the Smart car, is here:









This deck was built with ramps for the rear so I could haul a Jeep on the deck longways, but without the gooseneck (but with a tag trailer).

Also note that this truck is a VNL670, which is the full height cab, but it's a foot shorter cab then *most* HDTs with a full sleeper, but with the same wheelbase. So less cab space, more deck space. That meant I didn't need to change the wheelbase and didn't have to extend the frame very much, either. Pictured is an air ride gooseneck hitch, but it's deflated. That's an air ride tag hitch on the back, too, in a 2.5" receiver.

And if you want to see build pics of a 45' coach on an HDT chassis, see my For Sale site for my other rig:

http://coach.donniebarnes.com


--Donnie
__________________
My blog
djb_rh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 04:51 PM   #1032
ducnut
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: central IL
Oddometer: 3,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by djb_rh View Post
Nick, a single tandem axle is typically 20k pounds. So dual tandems are 40k. So it's not uncommon for commercial trailers to have a 30k pin weight. A normal US commercial truck with a single steer axle, two drive axles, and a dual tandem trailer has a GVWR of 80k pounds.
Weight limitations vary, by state and class of road. One should invest in a Motor Carrier Atlas, to be sure of limits for each state and road they plan to travel. Overweight tickets are big money.
__________________
'09 Triumph Tiger1050
'96 Ducati 900SS
'02 Suzuki SV650S (hers)
ducnut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 05:07 PM   #1033
little foot
Scratch and Sniff
 
little foot's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: The Springs, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,297
looks good.
little foot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 09:37 PM   #1034
MTrider16
Ridin' in MT
 
MTrider16's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2006
Location: Eastern Montana
Oddometer: 1,497
Nate your rig looks good. Can't wait to hear what it does with that 8.3 in it.

David
__________________
'13 VFR1200D, '13 XVS950, '09 F800GS, 07 CRF250X
Riding roads in Montana - Big Sky Country
www.mtrider16.smugmug.com
Mountains, Moose, and Miles: a Montanan's Alcan Highway Story
Continental Divide and More: the "No Dust" Tour of WY and MT
MTrider16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2012, 05:05 AM   #1035
natedog39 OP
New Sheriff in town
 
natedog39's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: ravena new york
Oddometer: 6,232
Quote:
Originally Posted by djb_rh View Post
Just to clarify (I'm not trying to convince you, just getting facts straight), I'm talking mostly about HDTs being converted to private RV title and used to pull 5ers. Back when that practice first became en vogue, most folks were singling the HDTs. They were also choosing the biggest cab they could get for the room. And they ultimately gravitated toward Volvos for a variety of reasons. But Volvos are on the nose-heavy side for HDTs. And most folks early on were singling the rear axles out (that's less common today, but still done). And many started building hauling decks and putting Smart cars on the deck sideways between the cab and trailer. Even before the Smart car thing happened, though, most were putting the hitch as far back as they could just to help improve the ride quality since the rear suspension was never near fully loaded even with the heaviest of 5ers (6k pin weight range).

EVEN THEN, with that amount of leverage, if you singled mid or short, and had a Smart on a big steel deck, most Volvos were perilously close if not overweight on the front axle. Many folks were singling short or mid so the truck would turn as tight as possible. That was a holdover from the earlier folks NOT using Volvos, however. The Volvo was the truck many gravitated to BECAUSE it turns so well already compared to other trucks. But even folks singling long found that unless they extended the frame and REALLY put the pin way far back, they were still overweight on the front. So they tried that. And many found it worked REALLY well to have the pin further back by a lot (six feet is not uncommon, though some have gone eight or more). Off-tracking is reduced by a lot. But the best part is you can back the trailer a LOT better, which is an issue for a lot of the folks using these because they live in it full time and visit a lot of national parks and such.

These days most folks have simply figured out that the easy button is to just leave the truck tandem in the rear. Build a deck that's 5-10k in weight by itself. Add three feet in frame length to the back and mount your hitch there. Then you have room for a Smart or a couple motorcycles or a golf cart or whatever. Folks who want room for a "real" car have left the wheelbase alone and simply gone even further out the back with the frame, but things get weird as you approach that six foot number, I think. But it's been done.

But obviously the bus isn't an HDT, either. I'd think with 2500 in pin weight you could go back another foot or two with the hitch with no problem, but I'm not sure that would get your front axle weight where you want it anyway. *shrug*

I threw it out as an option in case the front axle upgrade doesn't end up as easy as you thought, mostly.



Nick, a single tandem axle is typically 20k pounds. So dual tandems are 40k. So it's not uncommon for commercial trailers to have a 30k pin weight. A normal US commercial truck with a single steer axle, two drive axles, and a dual tandem trailer has a GVWR of 80k pounds.

So with even the heaviest of 5er trailers having 6-7k in pin weight, it's totally okay to move it back a good bit, even singled.

I'm on my second HDT with a frame stretch out the rear and hitch at the back, FWIW.


--Donnie
I appreciate any input from inmate's here and welcome any idea's/advice.
Whether I follow them or not.
I think your right about moving the hitch not making much difference anyway.
Some of our half buses at work have 8,000 lb front axles and I've been taking measurements while they're up on the lift.
Haven't measured my rig yet but the springs seem to be centered on the frame rails, which are spaced the same.
I don't see the installation being a problem.

Feel free to post more pics of your rig, both past and present.
That setup looks awesome.
__________________

2014 FE 501
2012 990Adv

Team Ghetto does a hot lap of America
natedog39 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 07:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014