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Old 08-28-2012, 07:03 PM   #196
gouralnik
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Awesome. Thank you
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:47 PM   #197
dogsslober
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THANKS Dr Bean

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Old 08-30-2012, 11:28 AM   #198
Gustavo.Ramos
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So today i got me thinking about the fuel pump failure symptoms. Someone mentioned, that most of the times the contacts are worn out and so the pump wont work. However the electrics inside can fail too albeit more rare.

Did not find much information on this, but as Dr Bean said, the replacement PCB will require a functional pump whose contacts have gone bad.

But how do i know the inner electrics are good and not as bad as the exterior contacts?

Here's what happen on my 950 with the pump black cover off:

Key: on
kill switch: off - nothing happens
kill switch: on - ONE pulse (visible and audible), the pump shaft comes out, stays out for 1 or 2 seconds and then goes back in, does not move any further.

Does this everytime i put the kill switch in ON.

So... can i assume the inner guts of the pump are operational, and it's only the contacts failing?
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Old 08-30-2012, 05:33 PM   #199
Sumi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustavo.Ramos View Post
So today i got me thinking about the fuel pump failure symptoms. Someone mentioned, that most of the times the contacts are worn out and so the pump wont work. However the electrics inside can fail too albeit more rare.

Did not find much information on this, but as Dr Bean said, the replacement PCB will require a functional pump whose contacts have gone bad.

But how do i know the inner electrics are good and not as bad as the exterior contacts?

Here's what happen on my 950 with the pump black cover off:

Key: on
kill switch: off - nothing happens
kill switch: on - ONE pulse (visible and audible), the pump shaft comes out, stays out for 1 or 2 seconds and then goes back in, does not move any further.

Does this everytime i put the kill switch in ON.

So... can i assume the inner guts of the pump are operational, and it's only the contacts failing?
You should pull the fuel lines - after turning off the main petcock - from the pump, and check it that way. (try not to blow yourself up, don't swallow fuel, watch your eyes, etc. :) - fuel will come out) Because when the line between the pump and the carbs (float needles) pressurize, it won't pump any more fuel -> the shaft won't move. (keep in mind, that if engine is not running, pump will only prime for a couple of seconds after turning on the ignition & kill switch)

Here is what I did:
I ordered the kit from Dr. Bean, as you can't go wrong with it - either if your pumps internal is bad or not or the points are worn or not - the points are going to fail sooner or later anyway. Then install it on the pump, and test it if it's okay or not (test it by riding the bike, not on the bench). If okay, then problem solved, if not - and here comes the trick - go to your local KTM dealer, and ask them if they have a bad pump laying in the shop somewhere! My dealer had about 10-20 failed pumps around in the shop (remember, all carbed LC8's use this pump, not just the ADV, and the points fail on all of them sooner or later - and a lot of guys don't know about changing the points, they just take the bike to the dealer who installs a new pump for them), so I choosed one which obviously had worn points on them, but the shaft was moving in it without "sticking" (ofcourse this won't reveal if the diod in it is faulty or not, but if the shaft is moving OK, and the points are worn, then probably it's okay internaly, it's just the worn points that's preventing it from working). He gave it to me for free. Took it home, installed Dr. Bean's circuit on it, and been happy with it for the past 10k kms:)

I had 2 OEM pumps on my bike before.. One failed on me far from home from one second to another without any sign - worn points. The other one (brand new OEM pump - it's a long story why I got a new pump on my bike, as I previously changed the points on my old one, and it was working again after that - but the dealer gave that pump to somebody else, while my bike was there for a service... whatever), failed after about 2000!!! miles.. It had a "sticky" shaft - so sometimes it was working, sometimes not. Had to pull the skid plate, and give a tap on it with a screwdriver for it to work again for a couple hundreds of miles (I installed Dr. Beans kit on this pump, and it had the same problems, as the pump was faulty internaly - sticky shaft).. So the point is, that you can't really test these things on the workbench, you have to ride with it to see if they're working properly or not IMO.

Sorry about the long story:)

But the main thing is that I never had any (pump related) fueling issues since I've installed Dr. Beans kit on the used pump (with the worn points, but good internals) that I've got from the dealer! And should this pump fail (However I don't think it ever will -at least I hope so:) - but if they're OK internally out of the box when new, they only tend to fail because of the points), I'll just get another used pump from the dealer, and transfer Dr. Beans kit to it from the current pump & keep on riding:)
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Sumi screwed with this post 08-30-2012 at 06:07 PM
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Old 08-31-2012, 01:26 AM   #200
gefr
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There are some pumps that fail due to sticky shaft.

The most possible reason should be water salt or mud collection in the pump. Diode going bad has been reported maybe once in here so not too common. Submarining the bike in sea water is highly forbidden. Salt water would short battery poles and let you stranded in no time.
So the only other occasion for the pump to fail is mud-water salt glueing the shaft after river crossings. I believe this could be cleaned, even though should be too rare occasion.
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Old 08-31-2012, 02:30 AM   #201
Gustavo.Ramos
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Sumi and Gefr,

Don't know why i havent yet taken a photo of my 950 fp. It is in very good condition, no signs whatsoever of corrosion or dirt/mud/what/sh#t getting in.

guess i'm just paranoid about ordering parts and then have another problem to fix thus delaying things just a bit more. Very frustrating when that happens.

The shaft appears to be moving freely, let's wait patiently for Dr Bean's solution
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Old 08-31-2012, 03:10 AM   #202
Gustavo.Ramos
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Woho!!!

Part arrived right now! Shipped wednesday, arrived friday morning!!!!!

I have some f#ck up to do this afternoon! Will post details later on

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Old 08-31-2012, 05:11 AM   #203
Boatman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gefr View Post
The most possible reason should be water salt or mud collection in the pump. Diode going bad has been reported maybe once in here so not too common. Submarining the bike in sea water is highly forbidden. Salt water would short battery poles and let you stranded in no time.
So the only other occasion for the pump to fail is mud-water salt glueing the shaft after river crossings. I believe this could be cleaned, even though should be too rare occasion.


Mine left me stranded on a mountain in Colorado with 1100 miles on the odometer...... it wasn't the points but something internal.
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:33 AM   #204
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I see occasional fps fail for other reasons the the contact breakers:

- diode fail: I think the diode sometimes fails BECAUSE of the bad contact-breakers: It gets to do more when the points go bad! Good reason to replace the points before they really go bad! (if you do so, you also have a nice spare/bakc-up if you don't trust electronics 100% (like myself :-) , but I am sure you will leave them home unless you go on a world-trip)

- diode fail due to reverse connection: IF you are stupid enough to reverse connect the fp to the battery, you will immediately blow the diode.

diode-fail 99% gives a short-circuit in pump and usually blows the FP-fuse in the bike-fuse-box.

- fp-rod stuck: This happend to people who drive a lot in wet-salt conditions (like here in holland or germany: Wet-snow and lots of winter-salt on the road). Not that many motorbike drivers out there in these conditions, so not so often seen.

- fp- internal coil burned: When the contact-breakers get stuck the pump is 100% ON. This will overheat the pump and blow the fuse on the bike normally. It also will not happen, because the bike doesn't run without the pump-running and the ECU kills the fuelpump power. But if you OVERsize the fuse and trick the bike (for example by bypassing the pumps fuel-hoses, as an emergency but WITHOUT de-connecting the FP connector....).
often this gives a shot-circuit between any of the electrical connection and the outside metal of the pump.

- Salt/corrosion inside the pump-coil: Also short-circuits to outside metal.

I did see OLD pumps... they do 70 liter/h where a new one does 90l/h , both 3x more then you even need.


btw: IF the pump-rod moves (about 2-3 mm) then you can be quite sure the pump internals are ok.


regards

Dr_Bean screwed with this post 08-31-2012 at 12:15 PM
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:32 PM   #205
Gustavo.Ramos
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Like posted before, part shipped, wednesday, received friday morning.

Kit is a fine piece of craftmanship, almost can't believe you do this manually

Assembled in the afternoon, never removed the FP from the bike. Instructions are simple, just remove old contact, weld 3 wires, screw 3 bolts, ignition of, kill switch on, fuel pumping sound, start, broooooooommmm, perfect!

Only better if pump never failed.



tkz
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Old 09-01-2012, 01:42 AM   #206
Dr_Bean OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustavo.Ramos
Kit is a fine piece of craftmanship, almost can't believe you do this manually

tkz
the current ones are reflow soldered (only the SMD parts): That is better then hand-solder and saves me quite some time.
non-smd parts, masking, coating, testing etc is still hand-work by me. Design is fixed: works for all bike now (also Honda ones).

I am happy to help 950 owners with it!

regards

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Old 09-03-2012, 06:14 AM   #207
tntyliss
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I just fitted Dr_bean's kit a few days ago, and everything seams to be fine. Not so difficult(if you read the manual).
Thanks Garben, made our KTM days a lot easier.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:10 AM   #208
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Hi

From Thursday 6 to Saturday 15 I'll be at the Balkanrally (www.balkanoffroad.com). So I won't be able to answer your PMs nor ship any parts.

regards
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:37 AM   #209
charlie264
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Dr Bean. What sort of ohms should you get across the FP coil...Bike stopped today..Points were bad so I though Id order a set from you and a normal set to get me out of a fix....anyhow took the FP out..lots of black soot to test. Connected FP to battery no clicky clicky...plunger felt stiff so used some WD...Connected to bike ...blows fuse. When I measure with points closed I get zero ohms...points open, I get open circuit.

Is the FP toast?
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:38 PM   #210
Dr_Bean OP
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You can measure the coil resistance, but it is not trivial.

- Coil resistance (from blue-black wire to the thin wire coming out of the pump, connected to top of braker-points_: ~ 1.6 Ohm
This is very low for most cheap multimeaters. to measure this:
* Put Multimeter in Ohm, lowest range (usually 200 Ohm range)
* sort-circuit the meter cables by pressing them together and see what the meter says.
* If it is more then 1 Ohm: Forget it... get another meter/change battery etc.
* If the meter says < 1 Ohm: Rember the numer (say 0.6 Ohm).
* now measure the coil of the pump: say you get 2.1 Ohm.
* substract the 'short-circuit value' and you have a 'reasonable' number

Also:
Measure from the blue-balck wire to the metal-outside of the put. This should me 'open'

Don't try to measure 'through' the contact breakers: that will only give you confusing data.

Pump test:
- Kill-swicth OFF
- make sure the contact breakers are in contact (if they are very bad: Clean them with a small file/sandpaper)
- Pump connected to the bike
- fuelpump-switch OK (and correct value)
- Ignition key ON
--> Now switch KILL-switch ON, and the pump rod should move 'outwards' at least 1x.

The ECU (computer) of the bike only keeps the pump active for 5 seconds.
To redo this test: killswicth OFF , and wait till the pump-rod is all the way back and the contact breakers are IN contact again.

IF the pump-rod does NOT move: through pump away

Do not use WD40: the pump has dry-brass bearings, they do not get better from lubrication.

Dr_Bean screwed with this post 03-04-2013 at 12:16 PM
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