RD ignition timing - where did I go wrong?

Bloodweiser · 09-30-2012, 01:45 PM

Done putting the motor back together.
Trying to set timin by following the book (Clymer) but my points are floating; not riding the cam when they should be open.

Here's what I did.
1) gap set to .012
2) Found TDC, zeroed indicator.
3) rotated clockwise (via alternator bolt) to -0.12" from zero.
3) rotated counterclockwise .041" to reach .079". This is the spec from the manual where my points should open. Again, points are no where near the cam lobe.

So WTF?

I even took off the whole big gizmo off down to the rotor to make sure I installed the cam correctly.
That pin makes it pretty idiot proof.

other relevant questions:
- Why does the manual state to go all the way back to .12" BTDC and then up to .079"?
- Looking at the points, does the left set correspond to the left cyl? Right to Right?

Shocktower · 09-30-2012, 04:10 PM

Are they new points ????

Bloodweiser · 09-30-2012, 05:19 PM

yes sir.

firstperigee · 09-30-2012, 05:43 PM

They have to touch the cam at some point or they can not be gapped, no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloodweiser

Done putting the motor back together.
Trying to set timin by following the book (Clymer) but my points are floating; not riding the cam when they should be open.

Here's what I did.
1) gap set to .012
2) Found TDC, zeroed indicator.
3) rotated clockwise (via alternator bolt) to -0.12" from zero.
3) rotated counterclockwise .041" to reach .079". This is the spec from the manual where my points should open. Again, points are no where near the cam lobe.

So WTF?

I even took off the whole big gizmo off down to the rotor to make sure I installed the cam correctly.
That pin makes it pretty idiot proof.

other relevant questions:
- Why does the manual state to go all the way back to .12" BTDC and then up to .079"?
- Looking at the points, does the left set correspond to the left cyl? Right to Right?

It'sNotTheBike · 09-30-2012, 08:35 PM

Maybe the points are not the correct parts.

Maybe the points have not been installed on the stator housing
correctly.

In any case, if you can afford it, there is no need to suffer with points in the year
2012. Things have moved on and electronic triggering is more precise and more
reliable.

Back in the day the hot setup was Krober ignition, but that was a long time ago.
I haven't messed with this stuff in a while but I believe points are not the only means
of triggering ignition on an RD these days.

The problem with points is that the cam follower wears quickly and because of this
the timing will not remain as it should be for very long. Also, if the crankshaft main
bearings have excessive runout the point cam ( which is attached to the end of the
crankshaft ) will "wander" and this means that ignition timing will vary significantly.
So even in the best circumstances points are a bad solution and a constant source
of hassles.

You do not want ignition timing to be imprecise or variable on a performance 2-stroke engine. This
can destroy an engine in less time than it took to write this sentence. Ok, maybe the
entire engine won't be destroyed, but a holed piston is not a good start.

You need to post some good close-up photos so people can see what is going on.
Words aren't going to give us the clues we need to solve this.

.

Bloodweiser · 10-01-2012, 02:54 AM

I gapped them when they were open, ie. when they were on the cam.
When I have it at the correct spot for timing, they're closed - ie, off the cam.
Like 90 degrees out.

I'll snap some pics when I get home today and go over this crap.

And yeah, EI in the future. Maybe even before I fire this old gal up for the first time. But I'm still not going to let this go until I figure it out.

firstperigee · 10-01-2012, 09:53 AM

Is it on the crank or is it gear driven? When you say that you rebuilt the motor, what all did you do to it? Was the top end apart? Was the clutch and/or the alternator pulled? Was the trans apart?
You may have to TDC the piston and reset the cam gear, yes? I have seen plastic cam gears damaged. A new one could be in the cards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloodweiser

I gapped them when they were open, ie. when they were on the cam.
When I have it at the correct spot for timing, they're closed - ie, off the cam.
Like 90 degrees out.

I'll snap some pics when I get home today and go over this crap.

And yeah, EI in the future. Maybe even before I fire this old gal up for the first time. But I'm still not going to let this go until I figure it out.

stainlesscycle · 10-01-2012, 12:11 PM

make sure the part of the points that rubs on the cam, and the points are closed when you are opposite the lobe. turn motor over so the lobe is at it's highest point, and pushes the points apart. set your gap. turn motor over again, watching the rub block of the points, is it following the lobe? the points plate can be set so it never follows the lobe, or just touches the lobe at it's widest point, and that just ain't gonna do jack shit. sounds to me like you adjusted the points plate wrong. look again closely at how it works.

.

Bloodweiser · 10-01-2012, 03:36 PM

i will reinspect asap.
really fucking rough day,
just walked in the door,
already in beer country.

The motor was completely disassembled.
everything came off, everything back on.
I never touched the points plate;
removed the old points, put new on.

There's no cam gear.
The rotor is bolted directly to the crank and set with a woodruff,
not able to mess that up.
The points cam fixes to the rotor with a locating pin,
not able to mess that up.

That's off the top of my head,
I'll try to get pics and shit up soon.
I know that will probably spell the answer out quickly.
just not now.....beeeerrrrrrrrr

It'sNotTheBike · 10-02-2012, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firstperigee

Is it on the crank or is it gear driven? When you say that you rebuilt the motor, what all did you do to it? Was the top end apart? Was the clutch and/or the alternator pulled? Was the trans apart?
You may have to TDC the piston and reset the cam gear, yes? I have seen plastic cam gears damaged. A new one could be in the cards.

There is no cam gear. This is a 2 stroke engine and the point cam is attached directly
to the end of the crankshaft.

We need PHOTOS of the old points setup alongside the new points setup, and
photos of the new points setup as installed on the outside of the stator.

Oh, and don't work on the thing after drinking alcohol, mistakes and frustration
are much more likely in that scenario. If you doubt this, consider whether you'd like
a dentist to work on your teeth when the dentist was a bit tipsy.

Whatever the problem is, it can be fixed. Relax, take a deep breath, and take
some photos and post a link to those photos so we can see them. Photobucket
or Picasa both offer free hosting for photos, last time I checked. If you want to
get fancy you can embed a link to the photos so they will appear in your post
on ADVrider, but that seems to be difficult for some folks, so if it doesn't work
for you just post a plain text link we can copy and paste into our browsers.

.

Twin-shocker · 10-03-2012, 11:01 AM

Without adjusting the points plate, it will be impossible to set timing correctly. Timing on these bikes is set by firstly setting the points gap properly, then setting the motor to firing point using a dial gauge, and adjusting the points plate so points are just opening at the firing point.

firstperigee · 10-03-2012, 01:43 PM

Me thinks that the OP will take a look at the backing plate or the alternator cover and see that something is not in the right position. Maybe there are pieces that can be assembled in more than one position. The backlash that is mentioned should not be very much. Certainly not the 90 degrees that he sees.

Bloodweiser · 10-04-2012, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by It'sNotTheBike

Oh, and don't work on the thing after drinking alcohol, mistakes and frustration
are much more likely in that scenario.

.

Alcohol is fine.
It's the 25 fifth graders I deal with every day which fries my brain.

Stay tuned.

Bloodweiser · 10-08-2012, 02:36 PM

well i'm not sure what happened last week that this didn't work out.
started over again today and things seem to be lining up well.

at first, the set of points I arbitrarily set upon starting with first wasn't riding the cam at all. I reset the gap, and when I dialed it in it opened at the correct time, or at least there abouts. Still fine tuning

Anyway, I'm not sure what the issue was.
perhaps I didn't tighten down that set of points well last week, and when it when through the motions, the cam bumped it out past the point of travel when it would contact the cam. Or perhaps the genius of stainlesscycle was right, and I may have adjusted the points when it was not on the lobe of the cam, but somewhere (anywhere) else in the cycle.

So I think I'm clear. I'll keep fiddling in my precious moments of free time.
and probably come up with something else to keep you all occupied.

Pics were promised.

as she sits:

firstperigee · 10-08-2012, 07:22 PM

It does look more normal than strange. However, there is so much rust that I myself would take it back down and scotchbrite it. Also, I would have Yamaha get me some new screws. A clean ignition in good repair will make better contact, will be easier to adjust, and it will stay in place when tight.

09-30-2012, 01:45 PM	#1
Bloodweiser ^OP honestly Joined: Sep 2007 Location: Upstate Ny Oddometer: 2,256	RD ignition timing - where did I go wrong? Done putting the motor back together. Trying to set timin by following the book (Clymer) but my points are floating; not riding the cam when they should be open. Here's what I did. 1) gap set to .012 2) Found TDC, zeroed indicator. 3) rotated clockwise (via alternator bolt) to -0.12" from zero. 3) rotated counterclockwise .041" to reach .079". This is the spec from the manual where my points should open. Again, points are no where near the cam lobe. So WTF? I even took off the whole big gizmo off down to the rotor to make sure I installed the cam correctly. That pin makes it pretty idiot proof. other relevant questions: - Why does the manual state to go all the way back to .12" BTDC and then up to .079"? - Looking at the points, does the left set correspond to the left cyl? Right to Right? __________________ the carrot seed - honest country. Bulletproof VS. Bloodweiser - yamaha world super GP TT 5000 BW - 455 : BP - 100

09-30-2012, 04:10 PM	#2
Shocktower Beastly Adventurer Joined: Jul 2009 Location: Oregon City Orygun Oddometer: 8,220	Are they new points ???? __________________ Alexa Drew Nov 9 1995- Oct 28th 2004 Miss you baby '08 KTM 530 EXC 79 RD 400 Daytona

09-30-2012, 05:19 PM	#3
Bloodweiser ^OP honestly Joined: Sep 2007 Location: Upstate Ny Oddometer: 2,256	yes sir. __________________ the carrot seed - honest country. Bulletproof VS. Bloodweiser - yamaha world super GP TT 5000 BW - 455 : BP - 100

09-30-2012, 08:35 PM	#5
It'sNotTheBike Banned Joined: Jul 2011 Oddometer: 704	Something fundamental is incorrect. Maybe the points are not the correct parts. Maybe the points have not been installed on the stator housing correctly. In any case, if you can afford it, there is no need to suffer with points in the year 2012. Things have moved on and electronic triggering is more precise and more reliable. Back in the day the hot setup was Krober ignition, but that was a long time ago. I haven't messed with this stuff in a while but I believe points are not the only means of triggering ignition on an RD these days. The problem with points is that the cam follower wears quickly and because of this the timing will not remain as it should be for very long. Also, if the crankshaft main bearings have excessive runout the point cam ( which is attached to the end of the crankshaft ) will "wander" and this means that ignition timing will vary significantly. So even in the best circumstances points are a bad solution and a constant source of hassles. You do not want ignition timing to be imprecise or variable on a performance 2-stroke engine. This can destroy an engine in less time than it took to write this sentence. Ok, maybe the entire engine won't be destroyed, but a holed piston is not a good start. You need to post some good close-up photos so people can see what is going on. Words aren't going to give us the clues we need to solve this. .

10-01-2012, 02:54 AM	#6
Bloodweiser ^OP honestly Joined: Sep 2007 Location: Upstate Ny Oddometer: 2,256	I gapped them when they were open, ie. when they were on the cam. When I have it at the correct spot for timing, they're closed - ie, off the cam. Like 90 degrees out. I'll snap some pics when I get home today and go over this crap. And yeah, EI in the future. Maybe even before I fire this old gal up for the first time. But I'm still not going to let this go until I figure it out. __________________ the carrot seed - honest country. Bulletproof VS. Bloodweiser - yamaha world super GP TT 5000 BW - 455 : BP - 100

10-01-2012, 12:11 PM	#8
stainlesscycle Beastly Adventurer Joined: Jun 2008 Location: morgantown, wv Oddometer: 1,639	make sure the part of the points that rubs on the cam, and the points are closed when you are opposite the lobe. turn motor over so the lobe is at it's highest point, and pushes the points apart. set your gap. turn motor over again, watching the rub block of the points, is it following the lobe? the points plate can be set so it never follows the lobe, or just touches the lobe at it's widest point, and that just ain't gonna do jack shit. sounds to me like you adjusted the points plate wrong. look again closely at how it works. . __________________ current bikes 07 gasgas xc300-94 duc 900ss-86 morini camel (2)-84 IT200-83 IT175-78 guzzi lm1-77 pursang 250-76 morini 3 1/2 strada-76 frankentaco pursang 200-74 frankentaco pursang 200-74 morini 3 1/2 sport-74 mz ts250/0-74 puch 175 (3)-73 can-am 175tnt-71 guzzi frankeneldo-71 ossa Stiletto-70 frankentaco sherpa s(2)-66 morini corsarino(2)-63 morini corsaro + many more

10-01-2012, 03:36 PM	#9
Bloodweiser ^OP honestly Joined: Sep 2007 Location: Upstate Ny Oddometer: 2,256	i will reinspect asap. really fucking rough day, just walked in the door, already in beer country. The motor was completely disassembled. everything came off, everything back on. I never touched the points plate; removed the old points, put new on. There's no cam gear. The rotor is bolted directly to the crank and set with a woodruff, not able to mess that up. The points cam fixes to the rotor with a locating pin, not able to mess that up. That's off the top of my head, I'll try to get pics and shit up soon. I know that will probably spell the answer out quickly. just not now.....beeeerrrrrrrrr __________________ the carrot seed - honest country. Bulletproof VS. Bloodweiser - yamaha world super GP TT 5000 BW - 455 : BP - 100

10-03-2012, 11:01 AM	#11
Twin-shocker Studly Adventurer Joined: Jan 2012 Oddometer: 993	Without adjusting the points plate, it will be impossible to set timing correctly. Timing on these bikes is set by firstly setting the points gap properly, then setting the motor to firing point using a dial gauge, and adjusting the points plate so points are just opening at the firing point.

10-03-2012, 01:43 PM	#12
firstperigee Fat Rat Joined: Jul 2010 Location: SoCal Oddometer: 76	Waiting for the pictures Me thinks that the OP will take a look at the backing plate or the alternator cover and see that something is not in the right position. Maybe there are pieces that can be assembled in more than one position. The backlash that is mentioned should not be very much. Certainly not the 90 degrees that he sees.

10-08-2012, 02:36 PM	#14
Bloodweiser ^OP honestly Joined: Sep 2007 Location: Upstate Ny Oddometer: 2,256	well i'm not sure what happened last week that this didn't work out. started over again today and things seem to be lining up well. at first, the set of points I arbitrarily set upon starting with first wasn't riding the cam at all. I reset the gap, and when I dialed it in it opened at the correct time, or at least there abouts. Still fine tuning Anyway, I'm not sure what the issue was. perhaps I didn't tighten down that set of points well last week, and when it when through the motions, the cam bumped it out past the point of travel when it would contact the cam. Or perhaps the genius of stainlesscycle was right, and I may have adjusted the points when it was not on the lobe of the cam, but somewhere (anywhere) else in the cycle. So I think I'm clear. I'll keep fiddling in my precious moments of free time. and probably come up with something else to keep you all occupied. Pics were promised. as she sits: __________________ the carrot seed - honest country. Bulletproof VS. Bloodweiser - yamaha world super GP TT 5000 BW - 455 : BP - 100

10-08-2012, 07:22 PM	#15
firstperigee Fat Rat Joined: Jul 2010 Location: SoCal Oddometer: 76	Good It does look more normal than strange. However, there is so much rust that I myself would take it back down and scotchbrite it. Also, I would have Yamaha get me some new screws. A clean ignition in good repair will make better contact, will be easier to adjust, and it will stay in place when tight.

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