ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > GSpot > Parallel Universe
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-30-2012, 09:48 AM   #1
PatrickM OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: Zephyr Cove, NV
Oddometer: 326
HID & CANBus

So wired some some 35W HID's last night for my 2013 F800GS and received a lamp failure when I went to start the bike. No surprise there. Supposedly the system is expecting to see a load that's either not there, or greatly diminished.

One solution is to order 55W HID's such as a kit from DDM tuning, runs about $65. http://www.ddmtuning.com/Products/DD...rcycle-HID-Kit

Another is to wire in a load resistor to let CANBus believe there's adequate load on the system, runs about $25. http://www.KBcarstuff.com/CANBUS-Fix-p/cbfix.htm

The above two solutions are a no-go for many because the HID is there to free up additional power.

In a bunch of the HID systems I've worked with, they've always come with a relay, allowing the HID system to be wired straight to the battery, for whatever reason has been given. A relay to ground from the light circuit is isolated from the main circuit powering the 35W HID ballast, and is very easy to notice as being shorted.

So here are my questions:

Is 35W enough to inform CANBus that there is a load on the lamp circuit? I was thinking of wiring the HID circuit to the stock wiring (35W < 55W) and seeing if that were enough for CANBus

Any system using a relay should have <1W going through it, so shouldn't any wiring harness for HID w/ a relay trigger a lamp failure?
PatrickM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2012, 12:12 PM   #2
ebrabaek
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: El Paso,NM
Oddometer: 4,471
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickM View Post
So wired some some 35W HID's last night for my 2013 F800GS and received a lamp failure when I went to start the bike. No surprise there. Supposedly the system is expecting to see a load that's either not there, or greatly diminished.

One solution is to order 55W HID's such as a kit from DDM tuning, runs about $65. http://www.ddmtuning.com/Products/DD...rcycle-HID-Kit

Another is to wire in a load resistor to let CANBus believe there's adequate load on the system, runs about $25. http://www.KBcarstuff.com/CANBUS-Fix-p/cbfix.htm

The above two solutions are a no-go for many because the HID is there to free up additional power.

In a bunch of the HID systems I've worked with, they've always come with a relay, allowing the HID system to be wired straight to the battery, for whatever reason has been given. A relay to ground from the light circuit is isolated from the main circuit powering the 35W HID ballast, and is very easy to notice as being shorted.

So here are my questions:

Is 35W enough to inform CANBus that there is a load on the lamp circuit? I was thinking of wiring the HID circuit to the stock wiring (35W < 55W) and seeing if that were enough for CANBus

Any system using a relay should have <1W going through it, so shouldn't any wiring harness for HID w/ a relay trigger a lamp failure?
I am not an expert on canbus, But my hid draws 33-35 watts, and I have never had any issues with the canbus. From reading numerous threads, I think it is more of an issue with " other issues" than the specific 55 watt draw needed, as mine clearly does not. I thought that the canbus would not detect a drop of 20 watt as a failure....but more like a NO DRAW...ie. burnt filament as a failure......It should be a simple test. Put in a 35 watt halogen in the headlight..... cost you 2-5 bucks..... if that does not create a failure... then there you have it. Worst case.... Buy a set of 10 watt led's....wire them into the circuit, and you are back at 55watt, and in case of that you are using both high and low beam hid.... now you can high bright someone, again.....
__________________


Erling
ebrabaek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2012, 12:52 PM   #3
PatrickM OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: Zephyr Cove, NV
Oddometer: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
I am not an expert on canbus, But my hid draws 33-35 watts, and I have never had any issues with the canbus. From reading numerous threads, I think it is more of an issue with " other issues" than the specific 55 watt draw needed, as mine clearly does not. I thought that the canbus would not detect a drop of 20 watt as a failure....but more like a NO DRAW...ie. burnt filament as a failure......It should be a simple test. Put in a 35 watt halogen in the headlight..... cost you 2-5 bucks..... if that does not create a failure... then there you have it. Worst case.... Buy a set of 10 watt led's....wire them into the circuit, and you are back at 55watt, and in case of that you are using both high and low beam hid.... now you can high bright someone, again.....
Lol!

I actually grabbed some alligator clips and disconnected the positive to the relay (fused) and connected it to the hot from the lamp (w/ a 10A fuse to make sure I don't blow anything).

Worked. 5 times in a row. I went one step further then: Disconnected and removed the relay harness, plugged the ballast straight into the connector provided for the relay/H7 connector. Still no problems.

So... you're right. If there is a drop of 20W, it's not detected as a a failure.

Use a relay and you have a near 55W drop and that's a failure.
PatrickM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2012, 01:03 PM   #4
Mtl_Biker
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Mtl_Biker's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: Montreal, Canada
Oddometer: 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickM View Post
Lol!

I actually grabbed some alligator clips and disconnected the positive to the relay (fused) and connected it to the hot from the lamp (w/ a 10A fuse to make sure I don't blow anything).

Worked. 5 times in a row. I went one step further then: Disconnected and removed the relay harness, plugged the ballast straight into the connector provided for the relay/H7 connector. Still no problems.

So... you're right. If there is a drop of 20W, it's not detected as a a failure.

Use a relay and you have a near 55W drop and that's a failure.
So Patrick, you're saying that if you add HID headlights to the F800GS you should NOT be using a relay?

Upgrading the lights and adding extra lights (driving and fog as well as brighter and flashing LED brake lights) is one of my first priorities on my new 2013 F800GS when I get it. So I'm very interested in your experiences with this (as well as those of others).

As I get older, I find I enjoy night driving (car or bike) much less enjoyable and I need/want the brightest lights possible. On my car I have lights (I think they are Xeon) which actually turn left if I'm turning left, and right if turning right. They're superb. And my current bike (which I'm not replacing with the F800GS) has Xeon headlights which are excellent. I know the stock lights on the new F800GS won't be as good as I want.

Cheers!
__________________
#6 2011 BMW K1300GT (sold)
#7 2011 Triumph Tiger 800 (sold)
#8 2013 BMW F800GS Kalamata Metallic
Mtl_Biker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2012, 03:11 PM   #5
ebrabaek
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: El Paso,NM
Oddometer: 4,471
Awesome Patrick..... This is one of the few times that you don't need a relay, as there are no voltage drop to the element.....as it is stepped up to about 10000 volt, the little drop you get on the input side is negligible. This is what I did....

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=624794
__________________


Erling
ebrabaek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 09:03 AM   #6
PatrickM OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: Zephyr Cove, NV
Oddometer: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
Awesome Patrick..... This is one of the few times that you don't need a relay, as there are no voltage drop to the element.....as it is stepped up to about 10000 volt, the little drop you get on the input side is negligible. This is what I did....

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=624794
Nice setup! I actually was able to get the components mounted under the right fairing w/o much of a hassle (okay, was a hassle, but worth it). I do like looking through threads such as yours to determine what people have done and help figure out what install method I can go with.

Without pictures (for now), I was able to drill out two of the mounting holes on the ballast and mount it to the right side of the bike, right under the air intake. There are two screws there to hold the "frame" for the instrument cluster which were spaced nearly perfectly. From there, I used some extra-strong 3M dual sided tape to mount the igniter to the outside of the ballast. Ran the wires from the headlamp both over and under the "frame" to the ballast and back.

Pretty much kept things out of the way. One thing I do have to comment on are the newer components for HID are very different from the past. I pulled out a ballast/igniter/relay from my 4Runner and the ballast is easily 3x as heavy and 3x as large. The slim design for a 35W ballast is roughly the size of a pack of cigarettes - very nice!

Will try to get pictures up this weekend...
PatrickM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 10:33 AM   #7
TowPro
Healing time Sucks
 
TowPro's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Compass PA
Oddometer: 2,747
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtl_Biker View Post
So Patrick, you're saying that if you add HID headlights to the F800GS you should NOT be using a relay?


Cheers!
Your stock lights draw 55w each (I think). If you remove them, and use that wire to trigger a relay, then have that relay send battery voltage to your HID's, the BMW computer is only seeing the load of the relay (very small load). Thus it thinks the head light is burned out because the load is missing.

Now I never understood why someone would engineer a system that uses a resister (burns power) to "trick" the BMW computer into seeing a load, so they could then run the HID's off a relay connected direct to the battery.

50W resister load, + 35W HID load = 85W total.
That resister used do "trick" the computer into seeing the correct load eats as much power power as a piece of heated clothing
__________________
2014 R1200GS - My Naked Street Touring Bike
2000 KTM LC4 640 E - For everything else
TowPro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 06:20 AM   #8
20Fingers
MCarrera GS-Giants
 
20Fingers's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2011
Location: Riding Maine 365
Oddometer: 133
Need some advice on my HUD system

I am having issues with my grip heaters cutting out or not starting, I think this might be associated with the HID system on my bike. The system pictured came with my bike and was installed by the previous owner...while it looks good, I have no reference for verifying the work.

The system is wired into the larger of the two housings, when triggering the hi-beam, the smaller housing lights up...the HID is constantly on, which is not desirable. Looking at the pictures, can anyone advise on how this looks and what might be wrong and changed to give me a proper hi-beam? Does anyone recognize the system as being problematic to the BMW CanBUS system?



__________________
A Lonely GS-Gaint in Maine! F800GS 2K13
20Fingers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 10:40 AM   #9
ebrabaek
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: El Paso,NM
Oddometer: 4,471
Quote:
Originally Posted by 20Fingers View Post
I am having issues with my grip heaters cutting out or not starting, I think this might be associated with the HID system on my bike. The system pictured came with my bike and was installed by the previous owner...while it looks good, I have no reference for verifying the work.

The system is wired into the larger of the two housings, when triggering the hi-beam, the smaller housing lights up...the HID is constantly on, which is not desirable. Looking at the pictures, can anyone advise on how this looks and what might be wrong and changed to give me a proper hi-beam? Does anyone recognize the system as being problematic to the BMW CanBUS system?



Can you take a few more pictures, close up of all your components, both for high and low beam. It should not be difficult to sort out. Also open up behind the little (high beam) and the big (low beam) units, to see how they are connected. Take a few pictures, and lets have a go.
__________________


Erling
ebrabaek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 09:36 PM   #10
fnatic
Gnarly Adventurer
 
fnatic's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2013
Location: VIC, Kilmore
Oddometer: 136
Hid

I have 2013 F800gs with HID low/hi beam both 35W. No Canbus issues. I was talking to a BMW tech about this when I was considering HID and got told that if your Volt/Amp draw for your headlights falls below a certain level the system considers that there is a fault. But with 35w, he stated that there should be enough of a current drain that CANBUS should interperet as within normal operational boundaries....


If similar to my HID's your HID circuit should be an enclosed loop system. The plug from the factory wiring that connects to the back of your standard H7 globe should simply plug into the HID wiring (inside the light housing), this should then lead to a plug, this attatches to the Ballast that converts the stock 12v into 23000v (or similar depending on your make). This then connects to the HID element that fits in your light housing.

Ok..... let the people who disagree line up to slap me....
__________________
Lets make like babies and head OUT!
- F800gs -
fnatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 04:17 AM   #11
20Fingers
MCarrera GS-Giants
 
20Fingers's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2011
Location: Riding Maine 365
Oddometer: 133
Thanks for the replies

Yes, it's a closed loop system.

Once I cracked open the back of the light I got to the source of the problem, I think. The install was done with bits of electrical tape and one of the connections had play in it...I suspect this was causing inconsistency in the power draw. I run Denali D1's, so I really don't need a HID system!

I removed the HID system, slapped a PIAA bulb and am calling it a day with headlight HID! I tested the unit for continuity and power output, its perfect...so, with this said: Anyone interested in buying this unit from me? Message me with an offer...its a nice system!
__________________
A Lonely GS-Gaint in Maine! F800GS 2K13
20Fingers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 04:21 AM   #12
20Fingers
MCarrera GS-Giants
 
20Fingers's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2011
Location: Riding Maine 365
Oddometer: 133
Thank for the offer!

I appreciate the help on this, ADV Rider never ceases to amaze me with the amount of community and generosity from its members....cheers!

See post below, I removed the system...Denali D1's are my choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
Can you take a few more pictures, close up of all your components, both for high and low beam. It should not be difficult to sort out. Also open up behind the little (high beam) and the big (low beam) units, to see how they are connected. Take a few pictures, and lets have a go.
__________________
A Lonely GS-Gaint in Maine! F800GS 2K13
20Fingers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 05:27 AM   #13
ebrabaek
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: El Paso,NM
Oddometer: 4,471
Quote:
Originally Posted by 20Fingers View Post
I appreciate the help on this, ADV Rider never ceases to amaze me with the amount of community and generosity from its members....cheers!

See post below, I removed the system...Denali D1's are my choice.
Anytime.
__________________


Erling
ebrabaek is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 07:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014