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Old 10-08-2012, 01:16 PM   #1
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Anyone use a standard ODB-CANBUS diagnostic tool on BMW?

So are there any inmates out there who've solved the puzzle of the round peg into the rectangular hole? The electronics are right there, it just seems so simple.... Maybe just a pin-out question.... Maybe I'm just deluding myself

Yes, I'm aware of the GS911, but in theory, if one could hook up a standard automotive ODB-CANBUS diagnostic tool (standard rectangular connector) to the silly BMW plug (round connector), then a plain-Jane code grabber from a local auto parts store would show the bike's codes. Of course, the next step is to know what the codes mean, but it's a step in the right direction -- no offense to Stephan and Hex Code of ZA for they have done good work despite BMW's efforts to maintain dealership secrecy, but this all should be as open as the automotive and truck industries.

Any help???
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:27 PM   #2
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BMW doesn't use the ODB protocol, so it will not work.

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Old 10-08-2012, 02:04 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
BMW doesn't use the ODB protocol, so it will not work.

Jim
I thought that was a legal requirement for homologation of any vehicle by the DOT?

Guess not, if they don't use it.
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Old 10-08-2012, 02:34 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Drif10 View Post
I thought that was a legal requirement for homologation of any vehicle by the DOT?

Guess not, if they don't use it.
For cars yes, not for motorcycles.

Jim
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:50 PM   #5
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I really don't care too much about the CODE. That will only tell you what circuit tripped the Light. I want the 60 forms of live down stream date that a good Scanner (Not Code Reader) will give you. I want to look at live date on Cyl Head Temp, Lambda, O2 Output, Injector Dwell Cycle, Intake Air Temp etc. My Auto Scanner is a Cheap One and it was right at a Grand. The Hex Code 911 Rocks and it's CHEAP.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:58 AM   #6
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Can-bus??

Thanks for the reply JVB. Perhaps I wasn't specific enough, perhaps not, but does BMW use either the OBD-II or CAN-BUS protocols that are covered by the automotive industry standards and code readers? It would seem odd that BMW might design its auto systems around the standardized ODB-II and CAN-BUS standards and then proceed to create a unique set of protocols for its line of motorcycles, particularly because the unique systems take years to be developed, burned in, and proven without failures.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:13 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by S-curvy View Post
Thanks for the reply JVB. Perhaps I wasn't specific enough, perhaps not, but does BMW use either the OBD-II or CAN-BUS protocols that are covered by the automotive industry standards and code readers? It would seem odd that BMW might design its auto systems around the standardized ODB-II and CAN-BUS standards and then proceed to create a unique set of protocols for its line of motorcycles, particularly because the unique systems take years to be developed, burned in, and proven without failures.
Not sure if this will help, but I'll try: OBD-II stands for "On-Board Diagnostics version II". It refers to the ability of a vehicle to perform self-diagnosis, generally centered around its fuel injection and emission control equipment. The Society of Automotive Engineers has codified a variety of standards documents covering everything from the shape and pinout of the connector to the level of diagnostic ability required of each subsystem, and so on.

OBD-II is not a communication protocol.

CANBUS on the other hand is a communication protocol, one of five that are acceptable for use in an OBD-II system. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-boar...gnal_protocols

I have often wondered if the round diagnostic connector can be matched pin-for-pin with the standard OBD-II connector, and if so, how an automotive scan tool would work.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:12 PM   #8
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someone ( not me ) needs to start splicing wires.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:39 PM   #9
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That's what I'm talking about!

Steve O., you have divined what I am aiming for. It's not that I don't want to support the work of the GS911 crew, but I must honestly say that at $350, those guys need some serious competition to bring the price down to where under-employed mortals like me can afford them. No doubt, without having ever laid hands on the GS911 device, I can't begin to compare them to the ubiquitous automotive diagnostic tools, but for general applications I bet they are close enough. Someone w/ some EE knowledge might be able to help us w/ suggestions on how to dig into the pin-outs, of which there are only 5 wires....
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:47 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by S-curvy View Post
Steve O., you have divined what I am aiming for. It's not that I don't want to support the work of the GS911 crew, but I must honestly say that at $350, those guys need some serious competition to bring the price down to where under-employed mortals like me can afford them. No doubt, without having ever laid hands on the GS911 device, I can't begin to compare them to the ubiquitous automotive diagnostic tools, but for general applications I bet they are close enough. Someone w/ some EE knowledge might be able to help us w/ suggestions on how to dig into the pin-outs, of which there are only 5 wires....
I'm an ME, not an EE, but I know my way around an oscilloscope nonetheless. Unfortunately, I've got zero zip zilch nada in the way of free time to mess around with this. Of the 5 wires, a couple of them should be CAN high and CAN low (signal and return) another couple are highly likely to be battery voltage and chassis ground, and not sure about that 5th wire. Switched power? Or perhaps a wire to trigger the data stream by pulling it either high or low?

A CAN-compatible automotive scan tool uses pin 6 for CAN high and pin 14 for CAN low. OK... somebody want to take it from here...?
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:25 PM   #11
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No, OBD is in no way connected to the BMW Motorcycle firmware. You can't use any of the logic, software or hardware used for OBD on a BMW, canbus or not.

The GS-911 crew spent years reverse engineering the software, and I suspect a little maybe inside help, to get to the point they are at. Sure it seems a bit pricey, the hardware is pretty cheap, but the man hours are not.

Not trying to discourage you, but this has been tried, and faild, before. If you do succede I suspect you will want a bigger cut of the pie than you think the HEX people charge.

Jim
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:44 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
No, OBD is in no way connected to the BMW Motorcycle firmware. You can't use any of the logic, software or hardware used for OBD on a BMW, canbus or not.

The GS-911 crew spent years reverse engineering the software, and I suspect a little maybe inside help, to get to the point they are at. Sure it seems a bit pricey, the hardware is pretty cheap, but the man hours are not.

Not trying to discourage you, but this has been tried, and faild, before. If you do succede I suspect you will want a bigger cut of the pie than you think the HEX people charge.

Jim
Absolutly right,
If you remember, a couple of years ago we wrote about this mentality.
People look at the final results of lots of hard work and think it was easy.
They don't seem to value another person's time and effort spent getting it to that point.

Use you as an example, you didn't just pull your videos out of thin air, you spent alot of time and effort to get that final product.

Also, some of the things I made, people didn't appreciate that I spent hours drawing the part on the computer and then heading down to the machine shop to make it,then making it again with improvements(R &D), so they would offer less than I was asking. Now I just make stuff for my friends and me.

As I tell the engineers at work that wonder why precision take so long, they don't understand the process.

So I just tell them, "I don't just pull this stuff out of my ass, it takes time, if you want it bad, you get it bad. The worse you want it, the worse you get it".
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Old 10-11-2012, 09:05 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soffiler View Post
I'm an ME, not an EE, but I know my way around an oscilloscope nonetheless. Unfortunately, I've got zero zip zilch nada in the way of free time to mess around with this. Of the 5 wires, a couple of them should be CAN high and CAN low (signal and return) another couple are highly likely to be battery voltage and chassis ground, and not sure about that 5th wire. Switched power? Or perhaps a wire to trigger the data stream by pulling it either high or low?

A CAN-compatible automotive scan tool uses pin 6 for CAN high and pin 14 for CAN low. OK... somebody want to take it from here...?
Drawing parallels to printed communications, CAN bus standard defines things like thickness of paper, size and color of the characters. It doesn't address the language.
Even if you'll manage to read the raw data off CAN bus wire, you'll still have a long way to go figuring out the actual meaning of it.
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Old 10-11-2012, 10:42 PM   #14
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What's good for the goose is good for the gander

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Originally Posted by Lensgrinder View Post

As I tell the engineers at work that wonder why precision take so long, they don't understand the process.

So I just tell them, "I don't just pull this stuff out of my ass, it takes time, if you want it bad, you get it bad. The worse you want it, the worse you get it".
Lensgrinder, I'm a bit offended by what you're implying about me and others who are kicking around the idea, albeit naively, of improving access to data extent on our machines that is hidden away by BMW's proprietary physical and software barriers. The irony here is that you are defending Hex Code's hacking efforts made against BMW's hard earned and proprietary work. It appears you don't understand innovation and the market motivations behind it. I'm a designer, and yes I do understand what goes into designing and producing things, but I also understand that fresh ideas feed off of old ideas and that is how technology proliferates. It's not that I and many other ADVers don't appreciate Stephan's work on the GS911 in the way you want your work to be appreciated, it's more a question of "Okay they solved that, how can we improve it, and do so more cheaply and efficiently?" As an engineer, I would think you would have a better handle on that. Oh yeah, if it's okay for Hex to lift from BMW, then they must be prepared to have someone lift from them.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:54 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by S-curvy View Post
Lensgrinder, I'm a bit offended by what you're implying about me and others who are kicking around the idea, albeit naively, of improving access to data extent on our machines that is hidden away by BMW's proprietary physical and software barriers. The irony here is that you are defending Hex Code's hacking efforts made against BMW's hard earned and proprietary work. It appears you don't understand innovation and the market motivations behind it. I'm a designer, and yes I do understand what goes into designing and producing things, but I also understand that fresh ideas feed off of old ideas and that is how technology proliferates. It's not that I and many other ADVers don't appreciate Stephan's work on the GS911 in the way you want your work to be appreciated, it's more a question of "Okay they solved that, how can we improve it, and do so more cheaply and efficiently?" As an engineer, I would think you would have a better handle on that. Oh yeah, if it's okay for Hex to lift from BMW, then they must be prepared to have someone lift from them.
I'm not intending to offend or defend anyone, if you can do it, more power to you, you will have earned it.
I am only speaking from personal experience on a few things I designed and made.
An example,
I came up with a design to carry four extra gallons of fuel on my GS for my Alaska trip two year ago.
I spent more than forty hours in design, R&D, and making the fuel can mounts, I made two sets, one for me and one for a friend who decided to go a different direction after I had spent $200 on material alone and was finished.
http://www.r1200gs.info/forum/15-acc...aska-trip.html

I figured I would sell the the extra set for cost of material and a couple hours labor($165).
I got a buyer so I made a video and put it you tube, and also sent him a DVD of how to install them.

When he received them he thought that the $165 included two Rotopax 3 gallon cells and locks. I paid $160 for the Rotopax stuff alone.

He wanted to return them so I let him minus my shipping fees.
I ended up selling the set for $125 which barely covered material and he tried to get me down even more than that.

I could list a few more things, but I think you get the picture.

My comment about engineers was not a blanket condemnation, there are some good ones, but they are usually the ones who leave their computer and get their hands dirty sometimes.
To me they are the true engineers because they apply practical application to test their theories.
The ones who postulate their theories with no practial experience are not true engineers.

I never said I was an engineer. I'm just a stupid operator.
My background is 35 years as a machinist in the aerospace industry, tool maker, mold maker, CNC programming, operating, and repair which entailed making parts to improve the machine.
I used that experience to design and make parts for my race bikes, and now I'm in Optics making lens elements for aircraft and space exploration. I also make the tooling to process those elements.

Again there was no insult intended or implied.
Try reading the lines and not between them.

Lastly, if the people who make the GS911 were violating any of BMW's patents you can be sure they would be in court with a cease and desist order,
and if you come up with some sort of protocol translator for the OBD II I would probably buy it since I already own a unit.
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