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Old 10-09-2012, 06:11 PM   #91
ebrabaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magoo_s Madness View Post
Hiya , yeah I have both , tho am thinking about taking the auto tune off and getting the bike dyno'd , adding the power commander was one of the best mods I have done . Previously I had done a booster plug was better but the difference with on the F8 with the pCV was immense , makes it a really nice bike to ride .
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Magoo
You dont need to take off the auto tune..... Just program the parameters leaner..... if this is your issue.... Autotune is your friend.... But a trip to the dyno is good, as you other why need to adjust....ride....adjust....ride.... etc..
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:20 AM   #92
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PCV works for 2008:s

Hi guys!

According to Dynojet all F800:s manufactured from july are considered "next years model". So, 2008:s made from july 2008 will work with the PCV.

Best regards,
Mats
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:26 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by mapa63 View Post
What happened to your mpg? Can you still ride the bike and get low fuel consumption? Of course the consumption depends on your driving manners, but if the Autotune enriches the mixture on most rev's, you could get a lot higher consumption....

What kind of exhaust and airfilters do you use?

Best regards,
Mats
You don't tune only for revs but also for throttle position. So you can get exactly the same mileage when you take it easy and then have more power available when you really give it some gas.
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:59 AM   #94
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Thanks!

Good input!

It would be most interesting to see what ideal Autotune strives for and how many "inputs" it uses compared to the original. Of course one can study any pre-fabricated map and also see the exact target AFRs for different revs and so on. Since you have to replace the O2-sensor you will partially disable the original capacity to adjust...

Do you know all the original sensors/inputs and how the ECU will suffer from the loss of the O2-sensor and that you have to plug the extra airhose for burning exhausts?

Ideally one should be able to get better mileage when driving calmly and better hp/torque when driving aggressively, but with a mpg-hit... But everybody that writes in forums about the PVC on F800s seems to get a lot higher fuel consumption

Best regards,
Mats
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:42 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
You don't tune only for revs but also for throttle position. So you can get exactly the same mileage when you take it easy and then have more power available when you really give it some gas.
I would like to caution a little. The a/f ratio for max power will be around 13.5....give and take one unit...... The stock map on the 8gs, I have heard that it rolls as high as 17..... which will not yield max power, but sort of dangerous lean mix. I don't think any tuner would incorporate this in a power map, as it is too lean. But by saving two maps, and capable to toggle between then with a say handlebar switch...... You could set one to say 13.5 a/f ratio....and then hover the other map to h leaner mix...perhaps mimicking the stock map.....less the idle takeoff, to minimize the bunny hopping, and your golden.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:48 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by mapa63 View Post
Good input!

It would be most interesting to see what ideal Autotune strives for and how many "inputs" it uses compared to the original. Of course one can study any pre-fabricated map and also see the exact target AFRs for different revs and so on. Since you have to replace the O2-sensor you will partially disable the original capacity to adjust...

Do you know all the original sensors/inputs and how the ECU will suffer from the loss of the O2-sensor and that you have to plug the extra airhose for burning exhausts?

Ideally one should be able to get better mileage when driving calmly and better hp/torque when driving aggressively, but with a mpg-hit... But everybody that writes in forums about the PVC on F800s seems to get a lot higher fuel consumption

Best regards,
Mats
I will go out on a limb here, and say that is because of their tuners..... Think about it.... You show up at a tuner, with a bike,,,,PV5/AT.......most tuners will not focus on economy..... but rather ...max power. It is quite simple to get both, but first you have to sniff the a/f ratio of several stock runs, to get an idea of where it runs...... Then just mimic those parameters in the second map.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:52 AM   #97
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I don't understand your reasoning Erling.

If I tune the bike to inject more fuel when I open the throttle more, say above 50%, but leave the lower TPS positions stock, how would that be dangerously lean, any more so than a stock engine?

There is no point to having a map for 13.5:1 throughout, you are just wasting fuel if the engine is not under load.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:03 AM   #98
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Really interesting!

I'm going to dive into the AFR-tables in Dynojets published maps for the F8GS and see what the values are.

My concern is - if I use a zero map but have disconnected the original O2 sensor and plugged the airhose - will the bike use more gasoline than before? The ECU will get less input. If this causes the bike to use more gasoline it would explain why everbody that mounted a PCV w/wo Autotune seems to take a mpg-hit! Or do they just drive more aggressively after mounting the kit?

Best regards,
Mats
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:24 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
I don't understand your reasoning Erling.

If I tune the bike to inject more fuel when I open the throttle more, say above 50%, but leave the lower TPS positions stock, how would that be dangerously lean, any more so than a stock engine?

There is no point to having a map for 13.5:1 throughout, you are just wasting fuel if the engine is not under load.
Well.... if everything works perfect....then you could just do that..... at less than 50% throttle set it to a high a/f ratio, and then anything above 50% throttle transfer to 13.5%.... But what I was eluding to was that running as lean as it does stock, to achieve the great fuel economy as it does..... You need to be very careful with all parameters. That is what the stock map is good at.....and it is engineered to be. I am not sure of the exact parameters of the stock map..... But I would approach "copying" said map with caution, as you can destroy that engine very fast. Combining it into one map..... I would not do, as there might be times below say 50% that you wanted to run a richer mix....like for the bunny hopping, and other trail side excursions. The biggest thing to take away here is to align yourself with a reputable tuner, that understands your goals. Then he/she spend some time sniffing the stock map....work out the bunny hopping kink out of that.....then store those parameter as a economy map..... then goes on to create a max power map....... I have a tuner lined up here in the states in Denver,CO..... But I will do mine with a set of remus or arrow headers first.....and money are a little tight right now. It would be interesting though to see what my fellow Scandinavian comes up with...... Last dyno graph I saw for the 8gs....had no a/f ratio, so to me...it was just a set of lines....
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:41 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by mapa63 View Post
Really interesting!

I'm going to dive into the AFR-tables in Dynojets published maps for the F8GS and see what the values are.

My concern is - if I use a zero map but have disconnected the original O2 sensor and plugged the airhose - will the bike use more gasoline than before? The ECU will get less input. If this causes the bike to use more gasoline it would explain why everbody that mounted a PCV w/wo Autotune seems to take a mpg-hit! Or do they just drive more aggressively after mounting the kit?

Best regards,
Mats
I am guessing the increased throttle response is what gets you..... The throttle response is slow on the 8gs......but only for a second...or two. I suspect that is from the stock map.... which manifests itself as the "bunny hopping" off idle....which is one of the biggest reasons I am eventually doing this. When you ride a race bike with lightening fast throttle response...... You get bitten. When I need the thrill, outside our aircraft,....I ride this.....


With lightening fast throttle response, as 55 rwhp, this 300 pound enduro will get to 80 km/hr before even many sport bikes will.... and I think... yet still get 55 mpg.... as of the implications with a zero map.... I would be cautious running that with the o2 disconnected. If you are going to this do yourself..... Then plug in the pc-5 and the auto tune..... with it's o2 sensor.... The run that at zero input...... and only change one thing at the time. If you can rig a setup with a laptop...... you can see the a/f ratio's as you ride under different throttle positions.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:06 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by mapa63 View Post
Good input!

It would be most interesting to see what ideal Autotune strives for and how many "inputs" it uses compared to the original. Of course one can study any pre-fabricated map and also see the exact target AFRs for different revs and so on. Since you have to replace the O2-sensor you will partially disable the original capacity to adjust...

Do you know all the original sensors/inputs and how the ECU will suffer from the loss of the O2-sensor and that you have to plug the extra airhose for burning exhausts?

Ideally one should be able to get better mileage when driving calmly and better hp/torque when driving aggressively, but with a mpg-hit... But everybody that writes in forums about the PVC on F800s seems to get a lot higher fuel consumption

Best regards,
Mats
The bike can and does run without imput from the oxygen sensor. Its purpose is to "sniff" exhaust and relay info back to the ECU so that fuel flow can be adjusted back to 14.7 when the bike is in closed loop (relying on its pre programmed maps.) http://www.autometer.com/tech_faq_an...x?sid=1&qid=48

Its range is limited, hence called a narrow band oxygen sensor. Twist the throttle and the bike goes to open mode and uses the other sensors on the bike to arrive at the proper A/F for the conditions. All the oxygen sensor and subsequently the ECU knows, is that the exhaust is outside the scope of measurement. It is all book learning on my part, but leads me to believe the A/F ratio under those circumstances are pre programed too, based on what those sensors are monitoring.

In a dyno run, the bike is in open mode. Am I correct in my assumption that it is the signal downstream from the ECU that gets the adjustment?, that would be the only way to capture data from the 3 remaining sensors. An oxygen sensor would seem important on a dyno run to arrive at proper settings, yet you rarely see them posted. It still seems a coarse way to capture all the real world options.

I believe the Auto Tune comes with a wide band sensor. The oxygen sensor detects exhaust deviations the stock sensors cannot. Seems to me that is pretty crucial, as it can make adjustments to account for wear and changes in injector flow rates, such as partial blockage. Depending on the adjustments, it is possible all readings would be outside the range of a stock sensor.

My beef with the stock ECU is that transition from 17 to 1 at warm idle to something usable when the engine spools up. At cold idle it will be something richer. I assume a Dynojet mod, will be richer yet.

Maybe some one with more knowledge on what/how a Dynojet is adjusting, would convince me there is no downside to it.
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itsatdm screwed with this post 10-10-2012 at 11:17 AM
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:29 AM   #102
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The bike can and does run without imput from the oxygen sensor. Its purpose is to "sniff" exhaust and relay info back to the ECU so that fuel flow can be adjusted back to 14.7 when the bike is in closed loop (relying on its pre programmed maps.) http://www.autometer.com/tech_faq_an...x?sid=1&qid=48

Its range is limited, hence called a narrow band oxygen sensor. Twist the throttle and the bike goes to open mode and uses the other sensors on the bike to arrive at the proper A/F for the conditions. All the oxygen sensor and subsequently the ECU knows, is that the exhaust is outside the scope of measurement. It is all book learning on my part, but leads me to believe the A/F ratio under those circumstances are pre programed too, based on what those sensors are monitoring.

In a dyno run, the bike is in open mode. Am I correct in my assumption that it is the signal downstream from the ECU that gets the adjustment?, that would be the only way to capture data from the 3 remaining sensors. An oxygen sensor would seem important on a dyno run to arrive at proper settings, yet you rarely see them posted. It still seems a coarse way to capture all the real world options.

I believe the Auto Tune comes with a wide band sensor. The oxygen sensor detects exhaust deviations the stock sensors cannot. Seems to me that is pretty crucial, as it can make adjustments to account for wear and changes in injector flow rates, such as partial blockage. Depending on the adjustments, it is possible all readings would be outside the range of a stock sensor.

My beef with the stock ECU is that transition from 17 to 1 at warm idle to something usable when the engine spools up. At cold idle it will be something richer. I assume a Dynojet mod, will be richer yet.

Maybe some one with more knowledge on what/how a Dynojet is adjusting, would convince me there is no downside to it.
There is really no downside provided it is tuned right, which is not trivial, but it is however fun. The autotune module works on a given AFR map in respect to rpm and % of throttle. As long as the operator knows what to do, it can be an amazing tool giving a much better result than any dyno ever can. Adjustability is infinite (almost).
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:40 PM   #103
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Lots of good input here!

Two published maps for the PCV and the F8GS, to begin from. It's Dynojets. The Zeromap, is mapped Zero for both cylinders, but individually. The other maps have the same settings in one table that is intended for both cylinders. The first map is for stock everything and the other one for Akra NoDbk and stock/aftermarket airfilter. Please feel free to comment!



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Old 10-10-2012, 02:44 PM   #104
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Does Auto tune change the values while riding on the bike? or produce a mapping tool to be used later to fine tune.

The reason that I think it may matter, is the sensors that dictate which "map", are the position of the throttle, oil temp, air pressure(altitude) and air temp.

The ECU reads electrical current from each sensor, does it computer thingy and sends a signal to the injectors that result in the proper opening time and pressure.

My understanding is, this output is what gets changed by Dynojet. Add a little, lose a little. Correct?

The maps are really mathmatical logarithms. Don't know much about them either, except they are the product of other numbers multiplied together, usually a square root. If so, they are weighted, depending upon the multiplier.

Here is what I suspect. A perfect tune at sea level will not be perfect at altitude. What I do not know is if those sensors have some hierarchy of importance to the ECU. In other words is air temp more important than air pressure and is weighted more? The stock ECU makes adjustments and the output is the result of all the sensors product.

Probably no worse result than fiddling with jetting on a carbed bike, but I am not sure it is as accurate as the stock ECU.
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:20 PM   #105
ebrabaek
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Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
Does Auto tune change the values while riding on the bike? or produce a mapping tool to be used later to fine tune.

The reason that I think it may matter, is the sensors that dictate which "map", are the position of the throttle, oil temp, air pressure(altitude) and air temp.

The ECU reads electrical current from each sensor, does it computer thingy and sends a signal to the injectors that result in the proper opening time and pressure.

My understanding is, this output is what gets changed by Dynojet. Add a little, lose a little. Correct?

The maps are really mathmatical logarithms. Don't know much about them either, except they are the product of other numbers multiplied together, usually a square root. If so, they are weighted, depending upon the multiplier.

Here is what I suspect. A perfect tune at sea level will not be perfect at altitude. What I do not know is if those sensors have some hierarchy of importance to the ECU. In other words is air temp more important than air pressure and is weighted more? The stock ECU makes adjustments and the output is the result of all the sensors product.

Probably no worse result than fiddling with jetting on a carbed bike, but I am not sure it is as accurate as the stock ECU.
Last I saw it, it was on a Pikes peak Honda crf-450...... It was equipped with a PC-5 with AT. The tuner build a map based on what he thought best, using the dyno in the process. The varying a/f ratio at different throttle settings. Where the AT is it's weigh in gold..... Is the fact that it allows the individual rider/owner to customize the map which is the applied in wide band mode. So there is some programming to do, but with a stock dyno capture with the dyno's O2 sensor deep in the pipe, you should have a good starting point. Then you open the AT control panel, and just sets the a/f ratios to where ever you like. The unit runs in Wide band mode all the time. In summery, as our fellow Athens rider said... When done right..... the possibility's are endless. I truly believe that you can make a stock replica, and just take out the lean 0-10% throttle, and eliminate the bunny hopping, and suffer no fuel penalty...... and then have another map for power.....toggle between the two, and you have gold ...and platinum..... My tuner in Denver verified this....... Getting close....
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