ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > GSpot > GS Boxers
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-16-2012, 05:37 AM   #1036
TuefelHunden
Studly Adventurer
 
TuefelHunden's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Oddometer: 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikegc View Post
I had the LAMPF! situation you described several times, always in cooler weather, with DDM and VVME kits. I had it with the 55w 1-Off kit, too, but not as often. Then, I switched to 35w ballasts and the HIDs have been flawless. When my 1-Off kit bites the dust (it has been working fine since March, 2011), I'll probably go with one of the aforementioned manufacturers but with 35w ballasts.

Mike
That makes a lot of sense, Mike. IMO and as mentioned in previous posts, it is that initial draw that is the culprit. I'm going to 35W. Been thinking about that all night and it won't make that big of a difference. May stick some aux lights on. On my previous bike, a Tiger 1050, it had PIAA 1100x lights right up under the chin fairing. I hooked them into to the high beam switch and it was fantastic. The 1100x has dropped about $175 since the 1100LED came out so they are sort of a bargain, but the wiring could be fun.
__________________
Old, but not Dead
TuefelHunden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 12:33 PM   #1037
WindSailor
Studly Adventurer
 
WindSailor's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Somewhere out West
Oddometer: 550
Quote:
The Morimoto's I currently have draw 8 amps at startup - that's too much for the GS's ECU/ZFE. The newer / later ones are drawing considerably less than that at start up (I'm talking about 'all' canbus ballasts in general) and should have a better or acceptable match.
The newer Morimoto's only draw 6 amps on start up. These cost more than the 'overseas' options. I called "The Retrofit Source" and they couldn't give a money back guarantee because they weren't designed specifically for the GS. So I don't know if they will work without any issues, or without a relay.

I also did a quick check on some of the 'overseas' companies that offer cheaper sets. A LOT of them did have a 10 amp draw at start up - so beware of that. I'll say I just mis-spoke before I did some hard research. My bad. There are some that have 6 amps and lower on start up, you'll just have to be cautious.

Rick
WindSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 04:38 PM   #1038
webjester
Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Location: Detroit Metro
Oddometer: 44
Some measurements

So, it is finally cold enough in Michigan and, sadly, too cold for my DDM HID kit. Below about 65F the low beam craps out, i.e., LAMPF! (despite the "CAN Bus cancellers" from DDM). So far the high beam has been working down to 40F. We'll see how it holds up when the winter comes.

Just to reiterate, the central control electronic measures the current to the low/high beam and disables the output if the current is either too low or too high to warn of a failed bulb or prevent circuit damage, respectively (remember, this bike does not have fuses). It does that by measuring the voltage across a shunt inside the module and only allows a certain voltage window.

After reading the recent posts I decided to do some further tests and here are the results (2008 R1200GS):

A. Forget the resistor in series. The HID module controls the power, that means if you reduce the effective input voltage by using a series resistor the HID tries to compensate by increasing the current. I confirmed this with an adjustable power resistor. Once the resistor is big enough the HID just starts to flicker. I managed to get the HID to stay on for a maximum of 250 milliseconds. That's it. So the module checks the current after 250ms after start-up (again).

B. By using an adjustable resistor instead of the HID, I also measured the thresholds (low and high current) to find the point at which the central controller shuts down the low beam. The upper threshold was at about 6.2A @14.2V. The threshold is probably somewhat lower while the alternator gets to full output. During this time the current rises (for about 2-3sec after crank). The lower threshold was at 0.86A @14.2V. So, the current must be between these two values to be acceptable for the central controller.
I didn't check the high beam as these thresholds are typically higher,

This confirms everybody's findings:

A. Some kits are just above, some below the 6.2A. Keep in mind that there is also some tolerance of the threshold from one bike to another.

B. Using a relay to switch battery directly to the lamp will work if you have a resistor in parallel to the relay coil of about 14.2V/0.86A = 16 Ohms to satisfy the minimum threshold. Maybe 15 Ohms to be on the safe side. At 14.2V this resistor "consumes" 14.2Vx14.2V/15Ohms = 13.5Watts. Make sure that the resistor has adequate cooling surface. A 50W resistor can only handle 50W with a huge heatsink!!! Consider using a 15W or 18W automotive lamp instead (you know how hot that gets! The resistor is no different).

Finally, there is one other option I am going to investigate when I have some more time (not for the faint hearted ). As mentioned earlier the central controller uses a shunt to measure the current. If I could reduce that shunt by, say 20%, the thresholds for the current would increase by 25%. But there are a bunch of "If's". I would assume that the module is sealed against water intrusion etc. - We'll see. I'll report back if this is feasible (you can really fuck up your bike if something goes wrong ). Anybody know off hand where this module is hiding??

Cheers
webjester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 06:56 PM   #1039
TuefelHunden
Studly Adventurer
 
TuefelHunden's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Oddometer: 587
Hi Jester. I too am looking at this stuff. There are other tricks being played in these systems. The 35W guys don't have anywhere near the problems that the 50w systems have. The obvious answer to that is less current at startup, but the Can-Bus friendly ballasts and error correction pig tails aren't using simple resistors but combinations of capacitors and resistors. Just a guess from deep in the cobwebs of that empty globe above my shoulders is they are using some sort of RC circuit to slow the current build up. I have a 35W Can-Bus ballast kit coming in. I'm at the point I want the bike to "work" when I hit the starter rather than playing Watch Mr. Wizard. Just something to think about. When the low beam LAMPF! error hits the low beam flashes and then stays off. Start up the bike with high beam on. On mine, it fires right up. So what's with that????
__________________
Old, but not Dead
TuefelHunden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 07:30 PM   #1040
marchyman
Cam Killer
 
marchyman's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Oddometer: 6,843
Quote:
Originally Posted by webjester View Post
Just to reiterate, the central control electronic measures the current to the low/high beam and disables the output if the current is either too low or too high to warn of a failed bulb or prevent circuit damage, respectively (remember, this bike does not have fuses). It does that by measuring the voltage across a shunt inside the module and only allows a certain voltage window.
Huh? What year? My '05 applies power to the bulb even when the bulb is burned out (or missing). I know this as the headlamp power on my bike triggers the relay for my fog lamps and the fog lamps stay lit with a burned out bulb. I tested that before using the headlamp as the trigger.
marchyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 08:22 PM   #1041
Friction275
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Location: West of Indy
Oddometer: 107
Using aux lights instead of a resistor

Jester (others)

Based on your findings what if I powered my Denali LED lights off of the low beam power and also used that line as the trigger for a relay to supply power to a 35w HID setup powered directly from the battery?

The Denalis use ~10 watts (0.83 amps at 12 volts DC) per lamp so that would be ~20watts / ~1.6a on the low beam circuit plus whatever minimal draw the relay has. Since I run the Denalis anyway the power I send to them wouldn't be wasted like it would be with a resistor.

Thoughts?
Friction275 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 08:52 PM   #1042
WindSailor
Studly Adventurer
 
WindSailor's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Somewhere out West
Oddometer: 550
First of all a BIG thanks for doing this webjester.

Quote:
Originally Posted by webjester View Post
Just to reiterate, the central control electronic measures the current to the low/high beam and disables the output if the current is either too low or too high to warn of a failed bulb or prevent circuit damage, respectively (remember, this bike does not have fuses). It does that by measuring the voltage across a shunt inside the module and only allows a certain voltage window.
On a 2011 it shuts the circuit down on an overload condition. -IF- I leave the resistor out completely (relay operated low side with a resistor in parallel) the ECU still leaves power on to the circuit energizing the relay, but I get a 'Lampf' error. So the low side -trigger point- is just for the 'Lampf' error message.

Quote:
Originally Posted by webjester View Post
B. Using a relay to switch battery directly to the lamp will work if you have a resistor in parallel to the relay coil of about 14.2V/0.86A = 16 Ohms to satisfy the minimum threshold. Maybe 15 Ohms to be on the safe side. At 14.2V this resistor "consumes" 14.2Vx14.2V/15Ohms = 13.5Watts. Make sure that the resistor has adequate cooling surface. A 50W resistor can only handle 50W with a huge heatsink!!! Consider using a 15W or 18W automotive lamp instead (you know how hot that gets! The resistor is no different).
I have a 50W resistor mounted to aluminum mounting plate under the beak and in-between the ballasts - that way it would have air flow to help keep it cool. What I found out using the min spec resistor (16 ohms) is that (I used blade connectors for an 'quick change' option) over time the connections got a little dirty - the resistance actually increased and started giving me intermittent 'Lampf' errors. So I ditched that resistor / setup and went to a 10 ohm resistor with posi-locks and everything is good again. That resistor is - very narrowly- wrapped in silicone tape near both ends just to get it away from any hardware so that it could radiate the heat and not warp the ballasts. So yes - I am supporting your viewpoint of not using the 16 ohm resistor.

If I had a choice I'd really like to get rid of the relay setup for the low side. BUT I really like the output of the Morimoto's (I still have the original set of 1Off's sitting on the shelf). I have read that the higher end of HID OEM's use a lower initial amp draw and still have the quick startup. Good luck finding those cheap. The only ones that are somewhat close are the newer Morimoto's - and the Denso's. But there are even 'overseas' knockoffs of the Denso's too. Arrrggg....

Quote:
Originally Posted by webjester View Post
Finally, there is one other option I am going to investigate when I have some more time (not for the faint hearted ). As mentioned earlier the central controller uses a shunt to measure the current. If I could reduce that shunt by, say 20%, the thresholds for the current would increase by 25%. But there are a bunch of "If's". I would assume that the module is sealed against water intrusion etc. - We'll see. I'll report back if this is feasible (you can really fuck up your bike if something goes wrong ). Anybody know off hand where this module is hiding??
Ehhhh.... have a few beers and thing about that one again. I have no doubt your capable, but is it REALLY worth it?
WindSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 09:06 PM   #1043
WindSailor
Studly Adventurer
 
WindSailor's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Somewhere out West
Oddometer: 550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Friction275 View Post
Jester (others)

Based on your findings what if I powered my Denali LED lights off of the low beam power and also used that line as the trigger for a relay to supply power to a 35w HID setup powered directly from the battery?

The Denalis use ~10 watts (0.83 amps at 12 volts DC) per lamp so that would be ~20watts / ~1.6a on the low beam circuit plus whatever minimal draw the relay has. Since I run the Denalis anyway the power I send to them wouldn't be wasted like it would be with a resistor.

Thoughts?
This one should get multiple viewpoints from people here...

Possible.

If you do this I'd use a blocking diode to prevent feedback to the ECU/ZFE when you tap into this circuit.
WindSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 09:10 PM   #1044
fleeting1992
n00b
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Oddometer: 1
oes the CanBUS system on the K16 differ from the 1200GS ? I installed HID's for my GS and no probs with warning lights etc -just works perfectly.This thread is really interesting for me, as this is my next planned mod.
fleeting1992 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 04:52 AM   #1045
TuefelHunden
Studly Adventurer
 
TuefelHunden's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Oddometer: 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Friction275 View Post
Jester (others)

Based on your findings what if I powered my Denali LED lights off of the low beam power and also used that line as the trigger for a relay to supply power to a 35w HID setup powered directly from the battery?

The Denalis use ~10 watts (0.83 amps at 12 volts DC) per lamp so that would be ~20watts / ~1.6a on the low beam circuit plus whatever minimal draw the relay has. Since I run the Denalis anyway the power I send to them wouldn't be wasted like it would be with a resistor.

Thoughts?
If you are hooking them to the low beam, which means they are on all the time, why not hook them directly to the battery and maybe put an on/off switch inline. That way there is no effect on any headlight.hooked to the ZFE.
__________________
Old, but not Dead
TuefelHunden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 05:24 AM   #1046
webjester
Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Location: Detroit Metro
Oddometer: 44
Wow, quite the feedback

Thanks for all the feedback and encouragement. Looks like there is still a strong interest. And I can relate. I love the HIDs, otherwise I wouldn't put in all this time.

@Tuefelhunden
I am itching to find out what is in the CANbus cancellers but don't want to sacrifice one yet. Like I said, with the current of the HID ballasts you are very close to the go/no-go threshold. Who knows what makes it just work. High beam ON may just create a small voltage drop on other supply lines, we'll never find out. Keep in mind it takes the contoller only milliseconds to measure the current and who knows what happens exactly during that time. Your best bet will be a relay.

@marchyman
Not sure what they do in 2005 models. I believe they still have fuses. May change everything. And control strategy probably changed a lot since.

@friction275
Yep. That's what I was think of. Extra bulb, LED etc. Anything with that wattage. Awesome solution.

@windsailor
Yep, I am with you on the beer! On my 2008 it shuts down under undercurrent for sure. So, that should make it a lot easier on 2011 models. You should only need the relay then, if you can live with the Lampf! on the display. Great find.
webjester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 05:40 AM   #1047
Friction275
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Location: West of Indy
Oddometer: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuefelHunden View Post
If you are hooking them to the low beam, which means they are on all the time, why not hook them directly to the battery and maybe put an on/off switch inline. That way there is no effect on any headlight.hooked to the ZFE.
I think you missed my purpose for considering running them that way. I'm trying to eliminate the LAMPF errror without wasting the current in a resistor or other non productive device. If I just unplug the low beam and run everything off of the battery via a switch it will work fine but I'll have a consistent LAMPF on the computer. As is my Denalis are run off of a relay from the battery but I'm still using the standard H7low beam.
Friction275 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 07:50 AM   #1048
TuefelHunden
Studly Adventurer
 
TuefelHunden's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Oddometer: 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by webjester View Post
Thanks for all the feedback and encouragement. Looks like there is still a strong interest. And I can relate. I love the HIDs, otherwise I wouldn't put in all this time.

@Tuefelhunden
I am itching to find out what is in the CANbus cancellers but don't want to sacrifice one yet. Like I said, with the current of the HID ballasts you are very close to the go/no-go threshold. Who knows what makes it just work. High beam ON may just create a small voltage drop on other supply lines, we'll never find out. Keep in mind it takes the contoller only milliseconds to measure the current and who knows what happens exactly during that time. Your best bet will be a relay.
When I get my new set in (hopefully within the next hour or so) I will have two of those cancellers ready to be sliced and diced.
I think it is pretty obvious that these guys aren't using simple V=IR calculations to solve this issue.

And yes, Friction, I totally missed your point. I understand the theory but I'm thinking that if you get it to work, it may be more of a case of "cut and try" winning out over engineering. I've thought I had this thing whipped three times so far only to go out on a cold morning to see that wonderful LAMPF!. Good luck.
__________________
Old, but not Dead
TuefelHunden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2012, 03:46 AM   #1049
TuefelHunden
Studly Adventurer
 
TuefelHunden's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Oddometer: 587
My Complete HID Saga

At this point I'm thinking about taping some flashlights to my handlebars.
1. Back in about April/May I got a pair of DDM 55W HID's. They both worked fine, no LAMPF!'s.
2. Hit some cool weather, lower 60's, got an occasional LAMPF! but would go off after a restart or two.
3. Got the Can-Bus error pigtails and the errors went away.
4. Hit some mid to upper 50's and LAMPF! was back, but would go away in a short time.
5. Got into the mid to upper 40's and the LAMPF! stayed on (no light too) until the weather got into the 60's.
6. Through all of this, when I hit the high beam or turned on the high beam, it functioned fine.
7. Yesterday I got a pair of 35w Can-Bus ballasts plus bulbs. One pair works like a champ. Even put the ballast in the refrigerator for several hours and it worked fine. The other pair is dead as a door nail. Yep, I did the usual swaps with good stuff and bad staff to make sure what worked and what did not. HID's R US already has my replacements on the way.
8. Right now I have the 35W CanBus on low beam and so far so good. I still have the 55W DDM on the high beam without the CanBus pig tail. The only time it throws an error is if I disconnect the high beam or I start the bike with the high beam on. I think I'm going to just leave it that way and use the replacement 35W as a spare. Like I said though, so far so good. There have been at least two, maybe three times I thought this thing was stable to have the LAMPF! return.
__________________
Old, but not Dead
TuefelHunden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 02:06 PM   #1050
dsy
Adventurer
 
dsy's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Toledo Ohio
Oddometer: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by WindSailor View Post
The newer Morimoto's only draw 6 amps on start up. These cost more than the 'overseas' options. I called "The Retrofit Source" and they couldn't give a money back guarantee because they weren't designed specifically for the GS. So I don't know if they will work without any issues, or without a relay.

Rick
I see this is a few months old but I thought I would chime in with my findings. I'm running the newer Morimoto's from the Retrofit Source now (35w low and 55 high) and have been very happy with the set up. I was running the 1off hids, and dont want to offend anyone who thinks those were great but I was never happy with the output of mine from day one. I contacted 1off a few times about the piss poor performance of them, but they kind of just blew me off. (It was close to the time they were folding up). I am running Retrofits can-bus harness on both the low and the high beam just because that's what the kit came with and have not had one Lamp-f error even when riding the few 20 deg days we have had so far this winter. The Morimoto set up was more money, but the lack of problems more than makes up for the added expense for me. The bulbs from the Retrofit Source appear very high quality compared to the ones from 1off. All metal and ceramic base compared to the plastic and rubber base of the 1off bulbs. Am pleased enough that I ordered the H11 kit today to soup up my GSA stock fog lamps. http://www.theretrofitsource.com/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=3955

Doug
__________________
2012 1200GSA
2007 JK Wrangler with diy hemi install
dsy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 02:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014