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Old 10-20-2012, 03:12 PM   #1561
troy safari carpente
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Last two post's... spot on... 100% how it is and should be.

too old... your opinion is possibly based on the perspective you've been exposed to via your close affiliation to one young gun who (in the past perhaps) always had a tendency to (want) go fast all the time...

And (possibly) the viewpoint of a (factory) team who would surely welcome a re-seeding formula that enables (more often) the ability to keep their riders (even those that have DNF'd a stage and rejoin under maximum time penalty) at or near the front... where they obviously provide both a commercial (TV airtime) and tactical advantage.

The argument put forward that pro riders "are held up" or "unsafe to be passing slower riders" in dust etc. has nothing to do with safety... In fact, it's quite the contrary...It's a misnoma; giving elite riders a "go as fast as you like guy's... if the bike shit's itself, we will give you a get out of jail free, go back to the front, collect 200 dollars Monopoly card"

If anything this achieves quite the opposite; It allows (encourages) riders to "push the envelope" even more (especially if all there is left to aim for is stage wins etc.), and in this respect, as the speeds increase the margins decrease and the helicopter statistics will go up from there. Safety huh? Yeah... "safety" disguised behind a commercial agenda maybe.

Just as Bluebull and Ned have stated quite accurately AND correctly, dust is a part of rallying/desert racing... passing safely in dust is a two part responsibility, STILL with a very big part of the contract onus lying with the competitor MAKING the pass (albeit those being rounded up play a big part in this two way street... especially when talking about being caught by vehicles... which we are not really debating that aspect here).

Two inescapable facts;

1. If you can't see, back off the throttle... unless you've got x-ray vision or guided by a higher power... it's only a matter of time/percentages before you bite the dirt.

2. If you've busted, broken, delayed, waylaid or dismayed your way to the back of the field (either by way of mechanical failure, navigational inadequacy or a crash) YOU ARE NO LONGER AMONGST THE FASTEST ON THE RANKING ORDER and as such those that HAVE done so, have fullfilled the criteria of being up the front and DESERVE that position/placing... regardless of whether the other bloke has a factory's initials stenciled on his jersey, a soft drink company paying his bills OR can pull 40 foot plateau jumps on his MX bike.

A cross country rally should be a test of navigational skill, physical endurance, mechanical reliability AND speed... not just a series of point to point time trials where the (percieved) fastest are continually seeded to the front.

So, (as is my way) not just to point out the pitfalls of the status quo, but to offer a viable alternative... HERE is how I would suggest to resolve the problem.

Any seeded "priority" (read pro/elite rider) who has been seeded into the top 25 (as I believe the number is?) or however many "priority" riders there may be. If a priority rider DNF's a leg, yet desires to continue (as we saw a number in both Marocco AND Oz Safari do in the last two months) then the maximum time penalty applicable should be applied (to the overall general classification score) and their start position for the NEXT days competition BEHIND all other priority riders and/or non-elite ridrs in the top 25 placing for that stage (or however many positions determined).

ie. A "priority rider" seeded back into the following leg would (should) not be given an advantage over other competitors who have fought their way to the top twenty/thirty positions (and are legitimately still bona fide in their right to be up there).

From that point on, their daily re-start position is purely based on their daily results... If fastest on the day... start first - that is fair and equitable (even though in the general classification they will be a long way down, because of the max time penalty).

That's how I see it.
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troy safari carpente screwed with this post 10-20-2012 at 03:17 PM
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Old 10-20-2012, 08:10 PM   #1562
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Originally Posted by troy safari carpente View Post
Last two post's... spot on... 100% how it is and should be.

too old... your opinion is possibly based on the perspective you've been exposed to via your close affiliation to one young gun who (in the past perhaps) always had a tendency to (want) go fast all the time

From that point on, their daily re-start position is purely based on their daily results... If fastest on the day... start first - that is fair and equitable (even though in the general classification they will be a long way down, because of the max time penalty).

That's how I see it.
Ha , ha, you guys have it spot on, but what else would I expect?

Safety for all is paramount and as you rightly say it's a two way thing - nothing more brutally demonstrated late this summer!

It's great to see the other perspectives and I can assure you that even for the young gun in question the dangers are more than appreciated.
The advice and guidance from his own team leaders is "time, no rush and no pressure", but at 23 with a potential career ahead as a professional sportsman (any sport) coupled with the relaising draem of riding for a living, the temptation to prove oneself may sometime a very difficult thing to manage.

It is being managed without a doubt and I suspect the positioning on the last two stages in Morocco demonstrates that - A year ago we would have one stage win and one DNF

I expect we will see a new level of maturity in the Dakar and with the one strike and your out rule" none of the reseeding issues.

As for reseeding and with such a rider mix in rally, the system without doubt needs to be considered as the sport develops at it has done over recent years. Although perhaps my perspective has been clouded and in reality it doesn't prove to be an issue too often?

By the nature of rally it is unlikely that the elite will ever be, or ever want to be, separated from non elite into a professional circuit and that remains the pure and true spirit of the sport, but of course you never know - although the money required and the commerial benefit from it would render it highly unlikely?

The responsibilities do lie with all the riders and even in F1 this year we have seen inexperience and enthusiasm create mayhem and risk!

Some changes are perhaps needed for the "new money" and motives and maybe a bit more than unwritten expectations on varying circumstances within the rally now that you are seeing the sport develop the way it is; but as you elude there is a massive level of personal responsibility involved and and most certainly a different riding culture from that of the holeshot mx world, one that has to be quickly learnt by any and all newcommers for the sake of all involved.

Cheers guys

Just as a footnote, I played competative rugby for a lot of my life, I learn't also at an early age that the more aggressive you were the more it could hurt

Generally I stick to golf now, at least with my shite (relatively) skills and the handicap system I can play with the best and nobody is going to get seriously injured when I do - well that may not stictly be true, but that's another story

too old screwed with this post 10-20-2012 at 10:45 PM
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Old 10-21-2012, 02:03 AM   #1563
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I think you mentioned it Troy....

IMHO putting a racer back in after they dnf a stage is purely unsafe

Example: while every other racer is racing a multi stage rally which involves a ton of strategy you now enter some person who's sole goal is to win stages. This guy now rides a different pace than the rest of the pack, rides balls out just to win the stage while everyone else is pacing and riding a multi day strategy.

How is this safe?

Reseeding him is plain and simple a slap in the face to those who are behind him once he is reseeded. One of those amateurs might have been trying to race competitively....but they aren't elite so the dnf fellow gets put in front of them as a reward for dnf'ing the previous days stage?

The results of the rally get whacked out of proportion with people not racing the rally as a whole but rather racing stages as short sprints in an effort to get a stage win.

This whole concept of letting someone race after they dnf a stage is lame, big time lame and takes a lot away from what makes rally raid racing so unique

Take for example the rally that just ended in Maroc....Helder shoulda been out of the rally, plain and simple
His bike dies early in the day, so he essentially gets a rest day while the rest of the pack are getting a physical and mental workout. The next day he gets reseeded and is fresh and has one goal in mind, win the stage. People even cheer him on, WTF. He has no race strategy anymore, is refreshed while others aren't, has nothing to lose (heck he already lost) and attacks the stage with a vengeance. No way is that safe having him out there, he doesn't even deserve to be out there and certainly shouldn't be congratulated for winning a stage like that.....LAME
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Deadly99 screwed with this post 10-21-2012 at 02:13 AM
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Old 10-21-2012, 02:28 AM   #1564
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No way is that safe having him out there, he doesn't even deserve to be out there and certainly shouldn't be congratulated for winning a stage like that.....LAME



Rodrigues didn't win the stage 5 after breaking on stage 4. Barreda did.
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Old 10-21-2012, 02:44 AM   #1565
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Rodrigues didn't win the stage 5 after breaking on stage 4. Barreda did.

Oops, but he won stage 6? If memory serves...he had a rest day where others didn't.

Statistically and inevitably someday a stage will be won (first second and third) by people who all dnf'd earlier in the race. How lame will that be ? The media typically only reports on the top three each day. The guys competing fight hard for this media exposure to further their careers and please their sponsors....having guys who already lost the race "steal" the limelight is...well....lame

For amateur rallies I totally get it, but for competitive races with the best guys in the world competing....I strongly disagree with it


PS...I am a huge Helder fan ( ) was just using him as an example
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Deadly99 screwed with this post 10-21-2012 at 03:55 AM
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Old 10-21-2012, 03:07 AM   #1566
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Month but we won stage 6? If memory serves...he had a rest day where others didn't.

Statistically and inevitably someday a stage will be won (first second and third) by people who all dnf'd earlier in the race. How lame will that be ? The media typically only reports on the top three each day. The guys competing fight hard for this media exposure to further their careers and please their sponsors....having guys who already lost the race "steal" the limelight is...well....lame

For amateur rallies I totally get it, but for competitive races with the best guys in the world competing....I strongly disagree with it


PS...I am a huge Helder fan ( ) was just using him as an example

It was done in the DC last year (Troy knew I was going to bring this up ) - ok totally unexpected, but in his first rally Sam won stage 2, DNF stage 3 (sat 4 hours or so in the sun at over 40 C with little water, so maybe not that refreshed after it!) then went out day 4 and from the back and won the stage again as an amateur/rally rookie - now that was of course a total one off and is unlikely to ever happen again and his reward for it is now self evident, but your point is very well made and totally valid.

For guys still competing for the honours it must be crap to be heading for a stage win only to be pipped by a DNF from the previous day and one whom actually get's the accolade of the stage win - it can't really be right.
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Old 10-21-2012, 10:23 AM   #1567
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Agree. Especially for aspiring rally riders, it's important to spend a lot of time thinking about these situations, to decide how to react.

The number one risk in Rally is dust, in my opinion. Most of the time, you can choose your risk level by slowing down so that you don't hit something, the danger you can't control is someone hitting you, and you can't manage that risk down to 0. But there are a lot of things you can do to minimize it- getting off or at the edge of the track if you aren't at full gas being a prime example. I always think of the rally track the much the way I do an interstate highway- they have the right to be coming along full gas.



Pre-rally, I don't mind seeding like putting Johnny Aubert at 21 in the Dakar this year, clearly, he was going to be on the gas. Chris Birch at 110, well, who knows. In any case, the cream will rise if you let it.

During the race, I agree with you Neil, you should start wherever you finished the day before, regardless of class or expectations.

We did a reverse day at the end of last year, and it was miserable and at times, felt suicidal. I can imagine that's how it feels for a fast guy to be mired back in the mix... but people must be rewarded, and punished, for their performance, it's the only fair way.
Even from Sam's Mums point of view, I agree wholeheatedly with this. I was really worried for Sam's safety at the Sardinia rally and 100% feel he should have been re-seeded at the BEGINNING. I think at the beginning of a rally the elite should be re-seeded if they are due to be starting far back from a safety point of view both for themselves and other participants but I think once the rally is under way no re-seeding should be allowed. All riders out there have fought long and hard to get their placing and it should not be taken away from them under any circumstances due to either rider error or mechanical failure. I think a rule review is in order lol!!
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Old 10-21-2012, 10:26 AM   #1568
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From another perspective, I don't have a problem with people reentering the race after DNF'ing a stage in smaller events, after all, it's a hard pill to swallow to pay the money to be there and then not ride the whole event.

Deadly, your point is well taken with regard to creating a "loose cannon"... but my observation was that the front guys aren't holding so much in reserve in any case. Perhaps they are trying to be nicer to their motor when they are in it for the win, but they aren't lollygagging about playing it safe.

IMO, Dakar is as it should be. Other events, even FIM rounds, should allow reentry to keep entries up. At best, the FIM class should not allow reentry after a DNF.

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Old 10-21-2012, 10:30 AM   #1569
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From another perspective, I don't have a problem with people reentering the race after DNF'ing a stage in smaller events, after all, it's a hard pill to swallow to pay the money to be there and then not ride the whole event.

Deadly, your point is well taken with regard to creating a "loose cannon"... but my observation was that the front guys aren't holding so much in reserve in any case. Perhaps they are trying to be nicer to their motor when they are in it for the win, but they aren't lollygagging about playing it safe.

IMO, Dakar is as it should be. Other events, even FIM rounds, should allow reentry to keep entries up. At best, the FIM class should not allow reentry after a DNF.

I agree they should be allowed re-entry but not to be re-seeded near the front before other well earned placings as that is just plain unfair play in my eyes
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Old 10-21-2012, 10:57 AM   #1570
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It's fun to debate and discuss

After some thought....maybe non elite should be allowed to re enter after a dnf stage. This would help aspiring racers get into the sport due to the cost of rally but I still firmly believe the elite should not be allowed back in a race once they dnf.

Just an opinion from some guy on the web who is a fan of the sport, take it for what it is
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Old 10-21-2012, 11:10 AM   #1571
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I think it's all about the riders' pace, and reseeding, although it may seem to have been done unfairly several times up to now, is still a necessary evil due to safety reasons.

Surely it depends on how knowledgable those doing the reseeding are (how well they know the pace of the riders they reseed) - and how objectively and fairly they place the reseeded rider

For me the most danger lies when riders of vastly different levels of skill are thrown on the course together. One is fast, the other not so much, add in dust and things get dangerous fast.

Example: say Chaleco has a mechanical and finishes almost last (like Jonah and his electrical gremlins in '11). this is a guy that is Dakar podium material / potential. Do you reseed him in 130th the next day? That is just asking for trouble. He will be pushing through too many riders that are much slower than him, which is a liability to both parties. It is impossible to control how reckless drivers of his calibre will be to make up positions, and how many chances they will be willing to take. It is what they do for a living and what puts food on their table (with all due respect to the privateers)

I still think reseeding riders last at the end of their respective "speed group" (easily determined looking at times / average speeds) is still the safest option for rallies.
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Old 10-21-2012, 11:18 AM   #1572
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It's funny how things develop.

There will be exceptions as we have seen, but in essence those guys who are not elite and have taken out a second mortgage amongst other things should perhaps (Dakar aside) be allowed to continue, that is if they can and want to after a dnf - they are equally tough, as a lot of them often experience those on 4 wheels up their ASS for parts of the rally

Elite riders with well funded teams are probably a very different issue - possibly Helder could have won a stage after his dnf, but held err back?

Safety and risk will always be issues and need to be managed carefully, any elite rider put back into the pond is going to be quick, but it shouldn't be at risk to him or others, or should he be able to take stage glory when he is allready effectively out of the race - or should he?

Even take Sam in last years Dakar (which we agree should keep the one strike rule) - we all know the costs of getting there and an electrical issue which started on the liaison on day 2 forced him out - very very cruel and expensive, not to mention the physcological hit - and that was only for his cheer leaders

But that's the spirit of the Dakar - it wouldn't be the toughest motorsport race on the planet otherwise

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Old 10-21-2012, 11:23 AM   #1573
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any elite rider put back into the pond is going to be quick, but it shouldn't be at risk to him or others?
In theory yes. Try explaining that to any elite rider though and he will look at you as if you are speaking Chinese

they just don't do "slow and considerate", more so now that they are on 450s
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Old 10-21-2012, 11:31 AM   #1574
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In theory yes. Try explaining that to any elite rider though and he will look at you as if you are speaking Chinese

they just don't do "slow and considerate", more so now that they are on 450s
Dead right, it's funny at times when all the advice is "steady and safe it's a marathon" - it is, but the top guys are moving like Hussein Bolt running a bloody marathon!
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Old 10-21-2012, 11:37 AM   #1575
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These concerns about safety are half the reason I don't like the idea of re entering a race once you dnf. The other half reason is it just isn't fair to people who get bumped back as a result.

Say 20 elite start...typically a few dnf...placing them at the back of the 20 pack means it becomes more difficult for up and comers to get into "the mix" to gain experience as they keep losing their opportunity to advance in the et days starting order. Instead of starting 19th like they deserve they get bumped to 21st (example) and lose a minute on the guy in 18th....i see how this can screw the top of the non elite out of the chance of moving into the elite category.

It also just seems wrong and not in the spirit of the sport. Ned mentioned the top guys ride full throttle but surely they must conserve motors or let themselves slip on a stages standings to better position themselves for the next day...sometimes. A previously dnf'd rider has none of those concerns. In theory the dnf guy could be running a fresh motor as he no longer has concerns of penalties...just one goal...to stage win for the publicity...

Just more rambelling thoughts
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