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Old 10-22-2012, 01:42 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by tHEtREV View Post
Australia is out.

We may have the terrain, but there is no way that you could get the relevant Government departments to allow access to it.
Really?

Actually... Australia; because of the large tracts of private land (cattle stations etc.) is one of the few places in the world where you CAN run an event like the DAKAR without having to use vast tracts of government controlled land (and all the red tape that is involved).

Yeah... it's not likely that one would get permission from the South Australian Gov't to run up through the Flinders Ranges National Park, or a permit to run straight across the Simpson Desert conservation area - off piste/GPS nav style... but once the Australian Gov't saw the publicity and economic clout that the DAKAR brings with it... even some of those doors could swing open... Just look at what West Australian government contacts afford the Oz Safari to run this year... the beach and dune stages.... AWESOME!

That sort of thing is unheard of on the east coast states!

So don't shitcan the idea cap in hand people... it could happen... How likely it is...? Well, I reckon only the brass at Australasian Safari and the ASO management are the ones best positioned to have an idea of what the answer is.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:15 AM   #17
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I don't see it. With the current unrest in all around the Sahara, Africa is not an option in the foreseeable future
As much as I hate to admit it, you are right. For more than a year now, there are news that the border between Morocco and Algeria will open any day. This could give us some hope as these two have enough space to run a Dakar but they neighbour Mali, Libya, Niger and Mauritania - AQIM territory.

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South America still makes the most sense. Stunning scenery, stable politics, crazy fans and an a good market for Honda and Spanish sponsors.


Dakar was raced around the Sahara for almost 30 years. Stepping out of Africa, ASO discovered that they haven't lost the brand, that they could recreate the race mostly anywhere where scenery, sponsorship, logistics and politics allows - even keeping the touareg logo!

From now on they will head where the money and strategy dictate. Volkswagen wanted to sell Amaroks in South America, Honda wants to sell even more millions of CG's and Tornados... The local public goes wild with the race, and we never heard the global TV audience to be waning. Even us (the african addicted) have accepted El Dakaro. What reasons could there be to head somewhere else in the next 2 or 3 editions?
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:22 AM   #18
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:23 AM   #19
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but they neighbour Mali, Libya, Niger and Mauritania - AQIM territory.
And with Libya, everything got worse. Too many people with guns and crazy ideas running around there. What a shame for this beautiful part of the world and the people there.



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What reasons could there be to head somewhere else in the next 2 or 3 editions?
Monsieur Lavigne: "Hey, government of Chile/Peru/Argentina/Bolivia/[Brazil?]! You know what? If you don't give us XX millions, we go back to Africa next year! The rumors are already EVERYWHERE! They even talk about it on ADV, see?"
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:53 AM   #20
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As a possibility I would throw the UAE/Oman and Saudi into the equation.

Facts :
Desert Challenge is 2400 km long.
Oman can easily host the same distance with the inclusion of mountainous terrain.
Saudi bar the problems which may arise with female competitors has some awesome desert terrain.

Even without Saudi, you could host a 7000-8000km rally in this region and you probably would ride any track twice.


I even think the UAE Motorsport Federation has discussed this matter a few years back when the Dakar got cancelled. The former chairman is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_bin_Sulayem

They have the money, the period of the year would fit.

Not saying it will happen but it could easily. Start in Abu Dhabi, work your way to the empty quarter, 2-3 days there, stage up to Dubai, Dubai - Fujeirah, Fujeirah- Ras Al Khaimah, Mountains up to Dibba, Dibba to Sohar, Beach run from Sohar to Muscat, Muscat up through the mountains again and down. Muscat to Salalah, Salalah back through the mountains. It would be awesome.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:14 AM   #21
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Really?

Actually... Australia; because of the large tracts of private land (cattle stations etc.) is one of the few places in the world where you CAN run an event like the DAKAR without having to use vast tracts of government controlled land (and all the red tape that is involved).

Yeah... it's not likely that one would get permission from the South Australian Gov't to run up through the Flinders Ranges National Park, or a permit to run straight across the Simpson Desert conservation area - off piste/GPS nav style... but once the Australian Gov't saw the publicity and economic clout that the DAKAR brings with it... even some of those doors could swing open... Just look at what West Australian government contacts afford the Oz Safari to run this year... the beach and dune stages.... AWESOME!

That sort of thing is unheard of on the east coast states!

So don't shitcan the idea cap in hand people... it could happen... How likely it is...? Well, I reckon only the brass at Australasian Safari and the ASO management are the ones best positioned to have an idea of what the answer is.

OK, point taken...

Again...


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Old 10-22-2012, 04:28 AM   #22
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It was genuine comment that orginated from Chile, so I was looking for any corroborative comments out there rather than speculation or wish lists

We have a genuine interest in 2014 Dakar location given that there is an entry planned which has preparation already underway.

The length of Chile?

This is going to be buzzing for a while, Morocco is finished, not enough knowledge on the Baja 1000 (now there's an opening ) everything said that could be about Honda and the Dakar for now, no new news on Dakar entrants, so what else is there to ramble on about

Rally Dakar to depart from Buenos Aires again in 2014
http://english.telam.com.ar/index.ph...catid=43:sport


http://www.lanacion.com.py/articulo....c=22&art=63857
Dakar 2014: Paraguay is among the countries receiving the rally


París, El director del rally Dakar, Etienne Lavigne, afirmó este miércoles a la AFP que Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay y Ecuador tienen opciones de sumarse a la organización de la prueba para la edición de 2014, descartando expresamente a Brasil hasta por lo menos 2017.
Paris Dakar Rally director Etienne Lavigne said Wednesday AFP that Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay and Ecuador have options to join the race organizers for the 2014 edition, expressly rejecting Brazil until at least 2017 .

When you Google it even ADVrider Dakar 2014 rumours is high on the list

Maybe it's just a tweak and not a continent change?
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:53 AM   #23
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China, Mongolia, Tibet? Plenty of open land and the ASO political clout and money could open the doors?
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:27 AM   #24
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OK, point taken...

Again...



Please tREV, don't feel chastized in any way (I know you don't) all the points you raise are valid... and I think that very often, you are only expressing an opinion that many others may hold as well, just that they couldn't be arsed expressing it.

There are very few absolutes in this worlds, just different perspectives on the same topic.

I personally don't think you'll ever see the DAKAR run again like it was in the late 80's and through 90's... anywhere in the world. The funny thing is that many people (probably 80% of the ADV rider culture) have been led or fooled into the notion that the Dakar is STILL the romantic Thierry Sabine inspired adventuresome challenge that it was back in the day... and it's not, and (probably) won't be ever again... The world is getting smaller and even IN the abandonned arse ends of the globe today, you just can't race across them carte blanche like back then... political correctnes, government restrictions, the media and not the least of which, courtesy to the folk that live in these regions, simply won't allow it any more.

As challenging and awesome as the UAE/Oman "concept" that Aussie66 put forward a few posts above sounds (and I agree idea-wise, that Mo Bin Sulyem and co. in Dubai would/could easily make it happen), but once again - in the eyes of the "African purists" - it is akin to running the event on a postage stamp (geographically speaking).

Part of the romanticism and attraction (marketing/PR wise) of DAKAR, is that it is an event that spans distances, that "goes" somewhere from point A to point B... "start location to finish destination" is a big part of what the trademark has come to represent (even though it no longer has Dakar as the destination).

I am not convinced that "looping around in the desert" - no matter how challenging a course could be set... will capture the imagination of the sponsors/public like; "Paris - Dakar", "Paris - Capetown", Dakar - Cairo", "Lisbon - Dakar", "Argentina - Chilé, "Peru - Bolivia - Chilé" etc.

tREV actually drew my attention to another thread - This - from three years ago, that touched on the same topic (as seems happens fairly often... there have been plenty of similar discussions before).

Now a lot has happened since then the Sth American Dakar has proven to be a huge success and many of the opinions expressed in that thread used analogy's and arguments comparing the Dakar to the way the African DAKAR used to be conducted... and not the way things are on the ground in Sth America today

The 600 km "stage" longditudinal distances referred to of "Africa" haven't existed in the South American editions of El Dakaro (if you look at the course maps and stage break ups) since 2009 either.

As far as my comment that the DAKAR could be conducted in Australia goes...

Yeah, it is true; the Australasian Safari rally has two - or even three selective stages a day... to accumulate 400 to 500 km's for each leg total.

But it has been very rare at the Dakar (over the last four years); that they have conducted unbroken 600 km stages either (as in Africa in past). It's just that ASO "solve" the problem of the "transport/liason" gap in the middle of a selective, by implementing a GPS speed controlled "nuetralized zone"*, instead of running the stage as two seperate SS.

*Like the one Marc Coma played games in during the 2011 Dakar.

The only reason the Australasian Safari runs the "multi stage per day" format is that, without a GPS/Irritrack system in place (which is an organisational expense, ultimately borne by the competior) with which to monitor the competitors progress/speed through the "nutralized zone", the traditional control book in/time card system of a conventional transport road section is the least expensive/simplest way to connect the Special Stages of the event, when the route has to traverse through "public zones, roads, towns" etc.

Most of the South American selectives since 2009 have been far more "loop like" in character, in order to achieve the competitive distances required, than that of the traditional "point to point" type courses that were once commonplace of the African Dakars.

But those days are gone... Authorities will not permit racing on open roads or through/past/close by populated areas... so the images of years gone by, with bikes, cars and trucks racing through African villages and townships, is today become a thing of the 1980's/90's Dakar folklore.

Implement the same GPS/Irritracking controls for a DAKAR planned across Australia (a financial consideration not considered necessary for the Oz Safari, which runs soley by roadbook) and sure... you could run a DAKAR (similar to the Stm American el Dakaro format) in Australia without any great drama.

600 to 700 km legs are not impossible in Australia... in the days when the event was run in the western parts of NSW and Qld, South Australia and Northern territory, there were often days of this length that feature up to 450 even 500 km of competition stages. 15 day event...? No problem, in 1988 the event ran 15 days frome Alice Springs - Darwin - Sydney (look at the map... it's only about half of the continent). In 1997 the event ran 15 days from Cairns - Ayers Rock - Gold Coast.

It's just a matter of setting it out... The vast tracts of land that Western Australia alone provide, are more than enough to conduct a DAKAR in (an area larger than western Europe). Although the OZ Safari has in recent years only used relatively small portion of the overall canvass that Western Australia presents, the various courses and bivouac locations (2009 to 2012) if linked up in a 15 day format... would make an epic course.

Regarding off piste/sand dune GPS navigation stages and the tracts of land needed to do these - like they have in Dakar...

No... it is unlikely that you would get permission run a selective stage straight over the Victorian, Great sandy, or Simpson deserts (as once was the case in Africa, cutting a swathe straigh across vast tracts of the Sahara), because many of these places are heritage areas or national park.

But "perception" is a funny thing when it comes to sofa occupying fan base watching the Dakar on TV at home. If you look at the maps, many of the Dakar stages since 2009 have been "contrived" to include the desired terrain features/required distance. ie: they "loop" around... not point to point courses. The area of Fiambala where the "killer" high altitude stage has conducted these last few years, is about 25 by 50 kilometers in size, and they loop around in there (GPS waypoints and CP's) to get the distance up. I've got family, friends and relatives sitting on cattle stations in the Northern territory covered with spinifex and dunes that are anywhere from three to five times the size of that...

The "ERG Chebbi" that everyone raves about (was part of two stages of the recent Rallye Maroc)... it is really just a desert sandpit sitting on a flat stony plain, the Erg itself is only about 5 km's wide or so, at it's broadest point and just 25 klicks top to bottom... but the way they set the course and film the footage... it gives the impression that the competitors set out across the Grand Erg Oriental towards Mauritania and oblivion.

Give me a GPS and a week to poke around on some of the big cattle stations on the fringe of the Simpson or Great Sandy Desert, and I'll present you a GPS/CAP nav off piste stage that's every bit as demanding as what the DAKAR can put up. It's just that for 25 years, the Oz safari has run as a roadbook only event, and has not needed to include the "off piste" alternative, that the terrain of the sahara dictates is necessary. But if you must have GPS/CAP nav stages as part of the itinerary... it could be done in Australia. THe land is there, the politics is no problem, logistics...? Hell they pack the Paris-Dakar onto a boat in LeHavre and ship it off to Sth America for the last four years... how hard is it?

As a matter of economics, it seems that many cross country rally events have evolved by "down scaling"... racing around on postage stamped pieces of cross country terrain (most of the FIA/FIM CCR events today are in the same boat). So far - DAKAR - is still the only true "point to point marathon" event left in existence (Master Rallye, Paris Moscow Beijing, etc. all have vanished), and even then, the DAKAR has "evolved" in the last 10 years from what it once was.

With the opportunities that South America provides to ASO/DAKAR, I too find it hard to think that they would consider moving from there at the moment... unless someone else was waving a very lucrative an suitable alternative under their noses. Brazil is one (of a few) as yet unvisited countries for the DAKAR to utilize. With Rio being awarded the 2016 Olympics, there is obviously potential marketing milage to be had there (how good would a start or finish ceremony in Rio be...?! )

For these reasons alone it seems that DAKAR would have potential to explore in Sth America for at least another two, to three... even four years?


Where is it headed, if it IS headed somewhere else... dunno? They tell me China is a growing, almost self sustaining expansive market... with heaps of barren wasteland to rally across...


Maybe Etienne has sized up a wooly Mongol headpiece as the Tuareg's headware in the future...?
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:46 AM   #25
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North America Dakar ??

i recently drove across Arizona ,Nevada and Utah ,they have some amazing terrain out there and vast exspanses of desert .If only they could get past the evironmental/government restrictions ,they would certainly have the conditions and terrain equal in difficulty to any Dakar .
Likely to see Dakar Leaving from Vegas one day ,?? probably not ,but what a place to start or finish from .
i suppose the thread on ADV here "Grand Rally" is as close as we may get !!!
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:00 AM   #26
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i suppose the thread on ADV here "Grand Rally" is as close as we may get !!!
Let the ADV Dakar Rally planning start! (New thread?) Should be some good reccies

Look forward to the course notes....

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Old 10-22-2012, 06:31 AM   #27
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I am pretty sure that the 2014 Dakar is moving to Eastern Europe and they are lowering the bike size to 150cc.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:41 AM   #28
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I don't know squat about the land down under so excuse my ignorance if these seems dumb....

Couldn't a Dakar, or any point to point rally, start in New Zealand with a few days of mountain tracks before boarding a ferry over to Aus ?

As you mention Troy, the Dakar is very much about selling the "dream" of a race that spawns great distances. Part of that sell is portraying miles of endless dunes when in reality it travels (85% ?) percent roads. The reality of people riding 200-800 km of paved liaisons isn't shown, what's shown is the (5-15% ?) of the route in the dunes or scenic canyons or scenic mountains. I think it's feasible, terrain wise, from what I have seen on the web and google maps that a down under Dakar would be feasible. Likely only for a year or three but doable.

BUT money talks and bullshit walks

Countries in South America are paying very large sums (5 million rings a bell) of money to the ASO to have the race go threw their country....would the Aus government throw down 15 million or so to have the Dakar cross their country ?

China? .... that would be fantastic

Racing across the Tibetan plateau, point to point across the gobi, etc....yes that could be crazy cool

Do I foresee the race moving away, anti me soon, from SA? Nope

Mr Berg, I havent heard any rumors....only rumors of other countries with SA.

Now that they have pressure washers in the bivouac......time to see race vechicles flying across the high altitude salt flats on a compass heading. My prediction for 2014
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:45 PM   #29
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Ted (Deadly99),

Actually the NZ to Oz rally idea has been tossed around before... in the late 90's some colleagues and my old man etc. looked at the logistics/possibility of running an ANZAC Safari... there were breweries and government's etc. that were keen to back the idea...

The South Island of NZ has some great expanses of mountain terrain with which to conduct (Andorra like) cross rallye stages up to a couple hundred km'sin length.

The main "hitch" with the NZ idea was; the relatively long boat/ferry transfer from Auklund/Wellington to Oz; it's not an overnight proposition - as is the case with a Mediterranean transfer - like were part of the African Dakars of the past... It is more like a three day proposition (at best); which was deemed to be too great an interruption to the rally's continuity (couple that with the Australian Customs reputation for cleanliness regarding imported vehicles; consider that the first three legs of the rally were to be run over the sheep shit encusted mountains of the Kiwi's Sewth Eyeland... then legs 4, 5 & 6 were shaping up to be a World Championship on board car washing tournament )

... all was filed in the "too hard" basket.

Even before that (in 1993) my father was retained by Thommy Sahato and the Indonesian government to set a rally that extended the Safari (it's annual pilgrimage back then, was 6500 km's Sydney to Darwin) from 9 stages in Australia (with a ferry link via two huge car/passenger ferries with accomodation) across the Indonesian archepelago via the Islands of Flores, Sumbawa, Bali and Java (5 stages), to finish in the Indonesian capital of Jakarta. It was a pretty cool concept... the "Bivouac" was to be onboard the car deck of the ferries each evening (accomodation in the upper deck cabins) as the boats cruised from one island to the next.

All the suryeys had been done, the course was set, the money appropriated from both the Aussie and Indonesian govt' etc. and all was in place for the innaugural Sydney - Jakarta Marathon Rally in 1994... But the island of Flores was hit by an earthquake/tsunami in late 1993... caused a national disaster/state of emergency, and the event was postponed/cancelled.

The subsequent 1994 FIA World Cup Australian Safari (Syndey - Darwin 6,500 km) was in fact the first nine days of what would have been the 14 day Sydney-Jakarta marathon. Unfortunately, by the time the 1995 event planning was to be put in gear, there had been a change in the indonesian gov't/infrastructure and the idea was shelved/burried... never to be.

So, as (another long) answer to your question... yeah sure; the Australasian region is more than capable/suitable to conduct a DAKAR (length) rally... it's just a case (as always) of the money and political aspects being put in place... In Oz the political part of the equation is more than achievable... but as is so often the case, it is the matter of money (and where it comes from/pays the bill) that is the crucial part.

There are undoubtedly places all over this globe that would be awesome to conduct a marathon rallye raid event... as the posts in this thread (and various others) are testimony to... The one BIG thing that sets the Dakar apart from other "evets/organisation" in the sport; is that ASO has found a way to reconcile the commercial pipedream, with the logistical realities and the PR/marketing image... and produce this spectacle year after year.

And for the last four years (since the 2008 incident), I reckon they've done a damned fine job of it too... all things considered
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:05 PM   #30
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Le Dakar will never come to Australia. Despres don´t like it there....
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