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Old 10-22-2012, 03:22 PM   #16
Bender
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Originally Posted by ElMartillo View Post
You may very well be lucky, did you have reason to believe your symptoms were water-related at the time?
Yes. the bike ran perfectly prior to me washing it. And after a few days drying out it's ran perfectly ever since.

The tach would just go bonkers when it died. Never before, never since.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:50 PM   #17
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If you remove the pulley be sure to use adhesive between the die Glocke (the bell) and the pulley. That step is not in the pdf but is in the oem service manual. Pay real close attention to the locating tab. PP have ruined brand new HES units from incorrect assembly.

I'm kinda surprised that any issue with the HES would cause "rapid firing of the injectors". Are there any signs if interrupted power on the dash? RID flashing on/off?

- The ignition switch is a unified with a sub-harness that has know issues along with solder point on switch failing.

- The ss switch might be flashing the power to the Motronic.

- Relays in the relay/fuse box have been known to seize or develop high resistance

- Power wire for the O2 sensor grounding out?

- check where the main wire harness passes close to the bottom of the battery box- sharp edge there

- kill switch may have high resistance. Can be temporarily by-passes (I think)

- remove tank and check the batch of harness connectors, check for steady power in from the rear from the ss switch (refer to wire diagram) Have seen this one over-heat, melted insulation, probably from someone grounding ss switch in bypass (1100).

- remove each injector connector, inspect for corrosion, if present repair the rubber weather boot
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:43 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by ElMartillo View Post
Jim, I appreciate your opinions and wisdom, and certainly express your skepticism as to the diagnosis, but please follow up with a firm belief in an alternative diagnosis. What else could cause my injectors to fire randomly and rapidly with ignition and kill switch "on", without the motor running?
I wish I had something for you. I've never heard of anything like that. My shot in the dark would be water in an electrical connector somewhere.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:01 PM   #19
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I'm kinda surprised that any issue with the HES would cause "rapid firing of the injectors".
Vintagerider, thank you for your suggestions, I appreciate your knowledge on this matter, however, I believe the mystery symptom here is the "rapid firing of the injectors". If there was an issue with the ignition/light switch, in your experience and/or opinion could it cause this condition?

This info may help: this evening I was finally able to duplicate the symptoms. The bike started fine and I ran the motor until it had a couple of temp bars showing. I shut it off. Keeping the kill switch in the "on" position, I turned the ignition on and off repeatedly with no evidence of the problem. I let it sit for a few minutes, then turned the ignition on and jiggled the key. The injectors started firing and the fuel pump went through it's start cycle several times. It seemed to coincide with jiggling the key. After maybe 20 seconds the symptoms disappeared and I have been unsuccessful in duplicating this. SO... I removed the ignition/light switch. I took the bottom plastic cover off. All solder joints and wires look good. I separated the two plastic halves of the switch, and I noticed a spring out of place inside the housing. Studying the parts, I realized it was one of the springs that should be under the "Y" shaped contact. I didn't notice any evidence of arcing or sparking, possible discoloration but no damage. I re-assembled the switch, re-installed.

I'm not convinced the loose spring was the problem, as I could have dislodged it myself during disassembly, but could this account for the symptoms? Most notably the "mystery" injector symptom? Additionally, could a loose spring in this switch account for an ongoing overnight battery drain issue I've been experiencing?

Thanks to all for the replies and knowledge!

ElMartillo screwed with this post 10-22-2012 at 09:31 PM
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:32 PM   #20
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I have the same bike (no problems) but I am interested. I'm looking at the diagrams & see some interesting things: the fuel pump relay gets power from the key through the bar kill switch. The relay feeds power to both injectors and the fuel pump, but it also feeds the O2 sensor and the tank breather valve. A short in any of those would take out F6 (10A). kinda groping, but a guy could disconnect the O2 & tank valve just to see if it changes things. I have to think that if the pump relay is not chattering then the problem is either the Motronic or one it's inputs. If the relay is chattering it could still be the Mo because it supplies the ground path for the pump relay. I don't remember if you said the Motronic's plug has been cleaned yet but it should be, also switching out relays is a good tool to isolate problems and the Motronic relay is the same as I recall.

another interesting part... the Motronic triggers both injectors to fire off pin 20, through a (Yellow/gray wire) which also connects to pin 10 in the diagnostic plug. it fires both at the same time

I don't see how the Hall senser could make the injectors fire if the motor isn't turning, but a guy could try disconnecting that one to see

long & short of it.... I would bet first on a bad relay or a cruddy contact... possibly the key
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:40 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by vintagerider View Post
If you remove the pulley be sure to use adhesive between the die Glocke (the bell) and the pulley. That step is not in the pdf but is in the oem service manual. Pay real close attention to the locating tab. PP have ruined brand new HES units from incorrect assembly.
Any notion of which adhesive I should be using? Loctite? Epoxy? Elmer's glue?
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:57 AM   #22
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Any notion of which adhesive I should be using? Loctite? Epoxy? Elmer's glue?
• Affix rotor (5) of Hall-effect gate with
adhesive to the Poly-V belt pulley (3).
Adhesive: .....Loctite instant adhesive or equivalent
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:07 AM   #23
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"rapid firing of injectors"

You mean that you hear a relay chattering?

Start at the battery. Clean/tighten terminals. The ground wire to the engine is a little tough to reach but that should be checked. Hopefully one of these is the culprit. Try supplying a temporary alternate ground pathway from the batt grond to a solid frame/engine ground.

On the 11xx you can (carefully) by-pass the ss switch and ignition sw sub harness then the kill switch. Those are common failure points. Swap the relays. Check the wire harness over. After that check the 02 heater wire. Beezer was more specific in telling you to unplug it along with the purge valve (located under the porter).

Chances are good that one of the above will resolve the problem. In the off chance that it doesn't there are other steps that an auto electric guy will take. Depending on your skills we can walk you through those. Because of the risk of frying the wiring harness I won't delve in to these just yet.

Regarding fuel pump relay getting power from key through the kill switch: Beezer is that just the relay coil? I don't have the 1150 schematic handy. I can say that I've had a fuel pump run continuously from a seized relay on a 2002 and I thought that was with the key off. That would imply that
only the relay coil is key and switch controlled which is typical.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:40 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagerider View Post
"rapid firing of injectors"

You mean that you hear a relay chattering?
No, I mean the injectors were "clicking" away and doing what they do which is emitting an mist of fuel with each click. At least the one injector I pulled was doing that, and I assumed the other was doing the same thing as it "clicked" rapidly. They both appeared to be firing simultaneously. A relay may have been chattering at the same time, but honestly I wasn't paying attention.

In an attempt to isolate the problem I switched relays around. This did not make any difference. I do not believe any of them are faulty. I also pulled every fuse and none of them are burned.

I appreciate all the input, if my ignition switch discovery doesn't seem to solve the problem I'll definately ask you guys for some clarification of terminology and procedure, as auto/moto electrics are not my forté, to put it mildly.

Thanks
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:15 PM   #25
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Please answer the questions that we already put to you. What are your observations on the dash, with the RID?

Have you cleaned the battery terminals? Provided an alternate ground path from battery to the chassis? What is the battery voltage?

With this "rapid fire" is the fuel pump cycling on and off?

The Motronic has to see a pulsing input from the HES to fire the injectors as far as I am aware. Normal operation of the fuel pump is one short burst with each on/off ignition cycle. If you switch on but do not start the engine there is no further activity from the pump.

I do not think that the initial pump priming is accompanied by an injector pulse.

If the ignition power is intermittent because of a loose ground, bad ignition or kill switch then the fuel pump prime might repeat.

You have several suggestions to follow. Please do those first and report your observations before we move ahead.

If the crank is stationary I do not see how the injectors can receive a pulse from the ecu. Is anyone aware of Motronic firing even one pulse to injectors at power up if the crank has not moved?

Restated: the pump will power up briefly (a second or two) each time the ignition is switched on, even with crank stationary. If you repeatedly cycle the kill switch on-off-on the pump prime repeats.

Very few Motronic ecu fail catastrophically. I have never heard of one failing in this manner which allows repeated injector firing. I likely have hearing loss because I've never heard any noise from my injectors, then again either the starter is cranking or the engine is running when injectors ore powering.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:48 PM   #26
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Vintagerider, I'm happy to answer your questions, but understand the problem is intermittent. I haven't been able to duplicate the symptoms since I took apart the ignition switch, found the loose spring and reassembled/reinstalled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagerider View Post
Please answer the questions that we already put to you. What are your observations on the dash, with the RID?
I don't remember seeing anything out of the ordinary with the dash lights or RID while the symptoms were occuring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagerider View Post
Have you cleaned the battery terminals? Provided an alternate ground path from battery to the chassis? What is the battery voltage?
I haven't cleaned the battery terminals, though I believe to have good contacts. I have not provided any other ground path from the battery, nor have I measured the battery voltage. The battery is relatively new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagerider View Post
With this "rapid fire" is the fuel pump cycling on and off?
Yes, the fuel pump would go through it's "start up" cycle repeatedly while the injectors were clicking away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagerider View Post
The Motronic has to see a pulsing input from the HES to fire the injectors as far as I am aware. Normal operation of the fuel pump is one short burst with each on/off ignition cycle. If you switch on but do not start the engine there is no further activity from the pump.I do not think that the initial pump priming is accompanied by an injector pulse. If the ignition power is intermittent because of a loose ground, bad ignition or kill switch then the fuel pump prime might repeat.
I believe you are correct, and that's what baffled me. It's not like the power was simply coming on and off repeatedly, although the fuel pump was cycling again and again, the injectors were firing. This does not happen during normal power-up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagerider View Post
If the crank is stationary I do not see how the injectors can receive a pulse from the ecu. Is anyone aware of Motronic firing even one pulse to injectors at power up if the crank has not moved?
My feeling is that if it was the HES, or more likely it's wiring is affected by the heat, or if water had gotten into and around a group of poorly insulated wires, that might send a false signal that the crank is in a position it is not. Possibly repeatedly.

Some other conditions observed prior to the problem that may or may not be related:

I had observed an overnight battery drain even after installing a new battery. I got into the habit of plugging the battery into a charger overnight, postponing any diagnostics (as I mentioned earlier, electrics are not my area of knowledge, expertise or interest).

The day before the initial event, the RID was found to be frozen in a reading from the previous day. Temperature, time and fuel level was in a state of suspended animation. I remember this had happened previously but not recently. To remedy, I simply disconnected the negative battery terminal for several seconds, then reconnected. The RID seemed to have reset itself. At the time I attributed this to the battery drain issue.

I've been having a problem with the ABS. Needs to be reset once a day, which I don't do as I think the ABS is BS, and if I rely on it I feel I don't know how to use my brakes. The first couple of times it goes through it's cycle it's fine, but the third or so time it ends with a much louder "clunk", and I notice the ABS lights are flashing alternately. For whatever reason, I didn't look into it and again attributed this problem to a weak battery.

Maybe some of this info helps, I do want to get to the bottom of what's going on with the bike, and I would like to fix the battery-drain and ABS issues. I wonder if the ignition switch condition could have contributed to the battery drain? I didn't charge the battery overnight last night and it started up just fine today, although the ABS is still malfunctioning in the manner described above. Hmmm....

Thanks again.

ElMartillo screwed with this post 10-23-2012 at 07:58 PM
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:07 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Beezer View Post
another interesting part... the Motronic triggers both injectors to fire off pin 20, through a (Yellow/gray wire) which also connects to pin 10 in the diagnostic plug. it fires both at the same time
This seems to be a path worth following, what could cause a false signal for the injectors to fire in the manner I described?
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:24 PM   #28
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Please follow each step of the advice -already given- starting with battery terminal cleaning/tightening. This means effectively cleaning the wires and batt terminals until they are shinny. Post the battery voltage that you find over-night before starting out, without charging. If the engine cranks, post the cranking voltage.

If you don't have a decent digital multi-meter then get one. You may be annoyed or un-interested in electrical but that is part of riding. At least you are home where you can get help. I think that you can resolve this if you want to, otherwise be prepared for lengthy delays and high repair bill. It is a mistake to assume things like "battery is new therefore it must be o.k." 90% of the time the fault is right in the battery or terminals.

Not mentioned yet: Disconnect every after-market wired device including all after-market connections to the original harness. If you have any aux lighting, GPS, radar, whatever, disconnect it all. Disconnect any HID lamps and ballasts. Pull the starter cover and unplug the convenience outlet. Inspect the outlet for a salt bridge.

The ignition switch harness can be disconnected (un-plugged) from the under the tank. It is possible to jumper the mc without the ignition switch. Alternately you can buy a replacement or properly test and repair the one you have.

If the fuel pump cycling re-occurs then note the condition of RID and dash indicators while in event.

If you do all the things listed in this thread so far then the problem will likely resolve. Do not skip things because they seem un-important.

You should remove the tank to check the harness, especially where it passes under the battery tray as already mentioned. See the sharp edge impacting the harness? Clip the wire ties. This will allow you to flex the harness.
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Old 10-23-2012, 10:27 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by vintagerider View Post
Please follow each step of the advice -already given- starting with battery terminal cleaning/tightening. This means effectively cleaning the wires and batt terminals until they are shinny. Post the battery voltage that you find over-night before starting out, without charging. If the engine cranks, post the cranking voltage.

If you don't have a decent digital multi-meter then get one. You may be annoyed or un-interested in electrical but that is part of riding. At least you are home where you can get help. I think that you can resolve this if you want to, otherwise be prepared for lengthy delays and high repair bill. It is a mistake to assume things like "battery is new therefore it must be o.k." 90% of the time the fault is right in the battery or terminals.
Thanks for all your interest and help. I am flying to the east coast tomorrow for one month so I won't be able to continue the diagnostics until I return. I will check and make note of the battery and cranking voltage (by this I assume you mean the voltage showing while cranking the motor to start) in the morning.

I do have a good multimeter, and I'm not annoyed by electrical work, just very unfamiliar.

I've been riding for over 29 years and have only owned one new bike out of at least eleven motorcycles I have had in that time. I have always performed my own maintenance, obviously including some electrical work among a lot of mechanical work. I have crossed the US on this bike 4 times, ridden motorcycles through 44 United States, Canada and 14 European countries. Two of my current and running bikes are restorations I have completed on early 1960s Hondas. This should give you a good idea that I know what motorcycle ownership entails.

I make no assumptions, I'm confident in my abilities and I'm honest about my limitations.

I am also eager to increase my knowledge and I appreciate you helping me with this issue.

Thing is, as it stands, the bike seems to be doing well besides what I believe might be a battery drain of some sort. I'll measure the voltage in the morning and let you know what I find.

I will check the wiring harness near the battery tray as you describe, and if the event occurs again I will make note of as much as I can, including what the dashboard lights and RID are doing, and if I notice any relays doing anything related.

Again, I appreciate it, and thank you!

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Old 10-24-2012, 09:39 AM   #30
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Post the battery voltage that you find over-night before starting out, without charging. If the engine cranks, post the cranking voltage.
Voltage last night when I disconnected battery charger: 14.03 VDC
Voltage this morning: 12.83 VDC
Voltage while cranking the motor (approx): 9 VDC

Let me know if this is in the range of normal.

I'll check voltage again this afternoon, but after that any other diagnostics will have to wait until the end of November.

Thanks
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