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Old 10-22-2012, 01:53 PM   #16
keener OP
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graby clutch, another sign?

Before I added more oil, I had to ride around the house to the garage so I started her up and a couple of times clutch was very graby (engine was very cold). Went away after I reved the engine a couple of times. Never happened again after adding oil.

Im using 10w40 by the way.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:37 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keener View Post
On Saturday night I found an oil leak around the connection under the oil tank. The one that has a little oil screen. The factory clamp was loss. I replaced it. There was oil in the skid plate but because there was sand accumulated there oil was mostly absorbed and I couldn't see it.

So I topped the oil to maximum, (I might have put a bit too much which is going to mess my front carb through the crank shaft vent), anyway the noise is gone.

I road 120km to the trails yesterday and rode hard all day, no noise at all, the light never came on.

So it was due to low oil level.

But its surprising because I only added about half a litter at most.
In my experience is not the level of oil...if you increase it the pressure will be higher because the system is full. However you won't need to trop it below normal to have the noise.
I suspect the problem if is not due to the filter is due to the valve as Gustavo is suggesting.
Still is a mystery.

Nic
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:42 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by bloc View Post
Just another data point:

I recently bought a 30k mile 04 950 and rode it back from SLC to Austin, TX. It had only 500 miles on the oil change using motorex 10w-50, when I left SLC. When started cold, it would do the typical rattle until the CCT built up pressure, then it sounded like any other LC8. Thing was, once that oil got warmed up well, it started rattling pretty bad, along with a flickering oil light. Not as bad as in the video, but enough that it made me quite uneasy, especially having to ride the bike thousands of miles home.

The light and sounds would pretty much always go away when revved to about 2500..
High temperature=higher fluidity of the oil= easier to pass throw valve and filter
Higher rmp=more pressure=easier to pass throw valve and filter

So I suspect the failure is on these two systems.

Am I right? Did I get what you guys are suggesting?

Nic
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:17 PM   #19
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Yeah, I left that part out.

Higher temp = lower viscosity ("thinner") oil, so it will flow more easily, meaning if the pressure relief valve isn't working correctly (the spring is too short.. haven't taken the old one apart yet to check) more oil volume will bypass the circuit (than if the oil was thick/cold). Keep in mind that at a given RPM the oil pump delivers a constant rate of flow, and that volume won't be changed by viscosity nearly as much as a leaking relief valve would. Raise the rpms, and therefore raise the flow of oil from the pump, and the oil leaking through the bypass valve becomes a lower percentage of the total supplied by the pump, so you now have enough left over volume to keep the pressure up (despite the volume "leaking" past the valve) to keep the light from flickering and keep the CCTs pressurized.

That said, in this system, the light shutting off at 2300 doesn't mean the bearings/piston squirters/cams/etc are still getting the oil pressure (& therefore volume) that they were designed for at a given RPM.

For me, the $60 to buy the upgraded oil pressure relief valve was a total no-brainer. Thing is, as in CJ's case, it doesn't always help. For me, and many other people with this issue, it did.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:30 PM   #20
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How much oil did you add, out of curiosity?
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:14 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by cjracer View Post
Great, thanks for the update. So many only read so far and then post.

So what are your thoughts on a bike that has had these items replaces "NEW" and it still makes these sounds?



Thanks.
Clogged oil line, faulty oil pump, incorrect oil specification (not another oil thread....), etc... a mix of these....

Quote:
Originally Posted by keener View Post
So it was due to low oil level.

But its surprising because I only added about half a litter at most.
Half a liter is the volume between Low and High oil level in the dipstick. Running at low level is not bad. Running below Low level is bad and can cause oil starvation. I try to keep between L / H, but i've noticed at low level my 950 did not make any unusual rattling, but these bikes have a tendency to behave differently on each specimem.... carefull not covering up a problem with a temporary fix such as adding oil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloc View Post
I get the bike home, and install the updated pressure regulator assembly (not just the piston), and new cam chains because mine were only measuring ~4mm at the cover screw. Along with fresh oil, I haven't seen the oil pressure light once (when actually running), and the idle is MUCH quieter. The CCT plugs still measured less than 7mm so I'm going to get guides and install them at some point in the future..
Somewhere along the way, KTM superseeded the CCT bolt, with a longer one (+/- >3mm long) that made measuring the distance to the cylinder wall slightly higher than with the original bolts, keeping the distance between 6 and 11 mms, thus rulling out the need to replace camchains.

Here


My 05 950 had the smaller bolts, your's is a 04....i believe its part 60036008100.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloc View Post
Higher temp = lower viscosity ("thinner") oil, so it will flow more easily, meaning if the pressure relief valve isn't working correctly (the spring is too short.. haven't taken the old one apart yet to check) more oil volume will bypass the circuit (than if the oil was thick/cold). Keep in mind that at a given RPM the oil pump delivers a constant rate of flow, and that volume won't be changed by viscosity nearly as much as a leaking relief valve would. Raise the rpms, and therefore raise the flow of oil from the pump, and the oil leaking through the bypass valve becomes a lower percentage of the total supplied by the pump, so you now have enough left over volume to keep the pressure up (despite the volume "leaking" past the valve) to keep the light from flickering and keep the CCTs pressurized.
Precisely!

From what i've been learning with this great bike, always start from the far simplest, stupidiest simple possibility, and then rule out accordingly until you get to the weirdest, far fetched scenerio ever imagined... And always be ready to stand corrected.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:24 PM   #22
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Thanks for the heads up on that part number.. hadn't seen it before. Will be installing soon.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:19 PM   #23
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How much oil did you add, out of curiosity?
half a litter.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:30 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustavo.Ramos View Post
.....
My 05 950 had the smaller bolts, your's is a 04....i believe its part 60036008100.

...
Gustavo, I just looked up CCT bolt for my bike , 04, the part number is different. It is 60036008000

I replaced the cam chain tensioners last winter. I think I can take the front CCT bolt out without taking the tanks off. I will do that, measure and report.

I am a bit confused here, what does CCT bolt has to do with oil flow?! aren't they controlling the tension on the chains?
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Old 10-23-2012, 03:07 PM   #25
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The longer stub on the screw does not control tension on the chain, it controls the parked position of the tensioner.

The tensioner relaxes when the motor is stood or when oil pressure is low. The longer plug means the fully collapsed tensioner does not leave the camchain so slack that it rattles bad and jumps a tooth.

What I cant understand is why the longer plug is 4 x the cost of the shorter one.....
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:12 PM   #26
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That's a tax on us forcing KTM to recognize that they did something wrong.
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:06 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keener View Post
Gustavo, I just looked up CCT bolt for my bike , 04, the part number is different. It is 60036008000

I replaced the cam chain tensioners last winter. I think I can take the front CCT bolt out without taking the tanks off. I will do that, measure and report.

I am a bit confused here, what does CCT bolt has to do with oil flow?! aren't they controlling the tension on the chains?
CCT does not affect oil flow. It was related to *bloc* post about changing the camchains due to small value when testing the distance between bolt and cylinder wall when unscrewed at TDC.

PN 60036008000 was the original part fitted in factory, after that ktm has been producing 60036008100 that is a bit longer, more expensive, but put prevents longer travel of the tensioner thus higher friction. Also it helps regarding the available slack as Peanuts mentioned.
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Old 10-24-2012, 01:12 PM   #28
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Of course if one wanted to save money, one could install a 4mm thick spacer in between the old style plug and the tensioner ;)
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:29 AM   #29
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Thumb +1 for Gustavo's solution

if the noise&oil light flicker is on even when the engine is hot, then Gustavo stated the solution on page 1 of this thread
how do I know this? I had the same issue, did what he did and now I don't have the rattle&the flickering anymore
I wrote this as a "double check" for this solution
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:59 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustavo.Ramos View Post
CCT does not affect oil flow. It was related to *bloc* post about changing the camchains due to small value when testing the distance between bolt and cylinder wall when unscrewed at TDC.

PN 60036008000 was the original part fitted in factory, after that ktm has been producing 60036008100 that is a bit longer, more expensive, but put prevents longer travel of the tensioner thus higher friction. Also it helps regarding the available slack as Peanuts mentioned.
What year did they put these longer plugs in? or do you have to buy them and replace in all cases?

My 990 is a 2008 and has also done the freaky oil light flicker one time when the oil got good and warm and has never done it since.
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