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Old 10-27-2012, 07:11 AM   #1516
LukasM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestVirginia View Post
Light makes right. I love the idea of a KTM more capable and yet lighter than the Tenere I am considering. Keep in mind, however, that I am in the "boy in a high school" stage when I fall in love every time I see a new set of curves.

I am concerned about the pricing of all these big ADV bikes.

Let's consider the Toyota Corolla. In the USA the base price is $16,230, has 132 hp, 16 or 17 inch wheels optional, 13 gallon fuel tank, and a curb weight of 2,800 lb.

The point is it's hard to swallow a 500 lb ADV bike being the same price as a 2,800 lb vehicle.
Since when is weight or size and indicator of worth or cost?

And it doesn't make any sense to compare the Ferrari of off road bikes (it only makes 16 HP less!!) with a Toyota Corolla.

If you want to get a lot of lbs of bike for your $ you might want to look at a KLR instead....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikepharmer View Post
There has been a lot of chatter about a 750-ish cc DS bike from KTM. Why would they dumb down the 990? If that were to happen, everyone would be bitching about less power, torque, etc.

Think about it-- the 990 kills the 800xc and f800gs, so why the fook would KTM make something less? I will grant that the 990 could have some improvements, but it absolutely slays the sub liter class bikes.

The 1190 is intended for the 1200cc class and assail the usual suspects (BMW, Triumph, Ducatti, maybe the S10).

I don't see the "dream bike" coming from KTM in a 750, cuz it's already here in a 990.

There is no replacement for displacement.
Seriously?

So according to your logic every bike that has less power than a 990 is "dumbed down"? That must be why the open classes in off road races are all won by 990s.... Oh wait, they aren't.

If you really don't get it, many people would gladly trade some of those horses for a lighter bike that will handle better off road, use less fuel, be easier to pick up, etc. There is no replacement for displacement when you are going in a straight line, but for turning, jumping and braking I couldn't give a shit whether I had 20-30 horses less if it could loose 100 lbs.

LukasM screwed with this post 10-27-2012 at 07:20 AM
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Old 10-27-2012, 09:46 AM   #1517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bikepharmer View Post
There has been a lot of chatter about a 750-ish cc DS bike from KTM. Why would they dumb down the 990? If that were to happen, everyone would be bitching about less power, torque, etc.

Think about it-- the 990 kills the 800xc and f800gs, so why the fook would KTM make something less? I will grant that the 990 could have some improvements, but it absolutely slays the sub liter class bikes.

The 1190 is intended for the 1200cc class and assail the usual suspects (BMW, Triumph, Ducatti, maybe the S10).

I don't see the "dream bike" coming from KTM in a 750, cuz it's already here in a 990.

There is no replacement for displacement.
I agree with you. The magazines would rate it as a step down in all articles.

I believe there is now LOTS of room in KTM's line-up for a 2013 KTM 990SE
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Old 10-27-2012, 12:14 PM   #1518
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I believe there is now LOTS of room in KTM's line-up for a 2013 KTM 990SE
It did sell like hot cakes the first time around!
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Old 10-27-2012, 01:35 PM   #1519
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Old 10-27-2012, 06:51 PM   #1520
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maybe 690 for you?i

{Quote} Seriously?

So according to your logic every bike that has less power than a 990 is "dumbed down"? That must be why the open classes in off road races are all won by 990s.... Oh wait, they aren't.


If you really don't get it, many people would gladly trade some of those horses for a lighter bike that will handle better off road, use less fuel, be easier to pick up, etc. There is no replacement for displacement when you are going in a straight line, but for turning, jumping and braking I couldn't give a shit whether I had 20-30 horses less if it could loose 100 lbs.[/QUOTE]


I think mother Orange would say if the 990 too street and heavy, here is a 690 that should meet your needs. Maybe 750 cc dirt bike is possible, but the market isn't there. You could always bore a Dr out, that would get you to 705 cc or so.
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Old 10-27-2012, 07:06 PM   #1521
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Originally Posted by bikepharmer View Post
I think mother Orange would say if the 990 too street and heavy, here is a 690 that should meet your needs. Maybe 750 cc dirt bike is possible, but the market isn't there. You could always bore a Dr out, that would get you to 705 cc or so.
Why do you guys keep recommending bikes if you have not even ridden them? It's pretty obvious that you have never taken a 690 on the highway or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The 690 is pretty light and makes a lot of power for a single but it is nowhere near as smooth as a twin could be (neither the 654 nor the 690cc version), and with the close ratio 6-speed you either gear it to work well off road OR the highway, you can't have both. I also trust my Husaberg more than I would trust a 690 so I see no reason to carry the extra 60 lbs.

I enjoy performance and light weight so I'm not interested in a DR, been there, done that (including a full KTM suspension swap).
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Old 10-27-2012, 09:04 PM   #1522
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Having recently spent 6 days on a borrowed KTM690 equally offroad in dirt and long pavement sections, with GL luggage, I agree with Lukas. After just 3-4 hours of highway speed pavement on a comfy Renazco seat the vibes eventually made me glad to get off of it, and I ride almost every day, all year, so very used to motorcycle seat time. My current KTM990, my former Aprilia RXV550, and even my Husaberg FE390 are all MUCH smoother at higher speeds than the KTM690. The 690 is fun in the dirt for a bigger bike, and when bashing around in the dirt you are up and moving a lot so the vibes aren't felt as much -- but the sit-down sessions a true Adventure bike will need to do just aren't all that comfortable on it.

Small v-twins rock and a small smooth reliable twin in the nice handling 690 frame sub 350lb as discussed earlier I think would be the magic carpet ride the hard-core here seek. I love the Triumph triples too and the Tiger XC800 was supposed to be Triumphs long awaited lighter Tiger (we hoped they would have kept it a lighter 675 triple), but instead they made it a pig, almost as heavy as my old Triumph Tiger 955i, big disappointment. I guess the market size for those of us who DO want to ride these things EVERYWHERE, including single trail, is too small a demographic for the big manufacturers.

I'm with many here in hoping the 1190 sells well and KTM does well enough to perhaps dabble in smaller Real Adventure bikes.
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Old 10-27-2012, 09:55 PM   #1523
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It seems our local dealer here on Vancouver island is now advertising for sale the 1190 for 2013
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Old 10-28-2012, 06:57 AM   #1524
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I see KTM's choice to increase new Adventure displacement to 1190cc very logical - all other bike manufacturers are making1200cc bikes - BMW, Triumph, Yamaha. It's hard to compete with 990cc bike in 1200cc class and attract new customers.
I see KTM 690 competing more with other 1-cylinder bikes like BMW Sertao and Yamaha Tenere.
That leaves new 800cc multi-cylinder Adventure bike class (F800GS, Tiger 800) somewhere inbetween - it would make a lot of sense for KTM to come up with new bike to compete with BMW and Triumph. I would expect ca 100hp (like original 950) and 170-180kg (sub 400lbs) wet weight. Let's hope for the best!
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:35 AM   #1525
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If you really don't get it, many people would gladly trade some of those horses for a lighter bike that will handle better off road, use less fuel, be easier to pick up, etc. There is no replacement for displacement when you are going in a straight line, but for turning, jumping and braking I couldn't give a shit whether I had 20-30 horses less if it could loose 100 lbs.[/QUOTE]
Nobody seems to realize that, for what the 950 is (or was), it ain't that porky. You can't compare it to anything else, because it's in a class of one.

The new beast.......................
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:59 AM   #1526
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Originally Posted by O.C.F.RIDER View Post
If you really don't get it, many people would gladly trade some of those horses for a lighter bike that will handle better off road, use less fuel, be easier to pick up, etc. There is no replacement for displacement when you are going in a straight line, but for turning, jumping and braking I couldn't give a shit whether I had 20-30 horses less if it could loose 100 lbs.
Nobody seems to realize that, for what the 950 is (or was), it ain't that porky. You can't compare it to anything else, because it's in a class of one.

The new beast.......................
[/QUOTE]

I'm really not sure where some people (not you obviously) would expect the savings to come from with an 800 if all else was equal or close to equal with the 9X0's. You want slightly less HP, but with suspension and fuel capacity it's gonna make it end up damn close to the same. Just compare the 9x0 to the current crop of less suspended, less powerful 800 offerings from the competition, they aren't very far apart and with the common mods like exhaust get even closer. We all agree the HP is a big part of what makes the 9X0's so much fun and so good on the boring bits and we want to take that away for a few kg's? No thanks.
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:00 AM   #1527
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Originally Posted by O.C.F.RIDER View Post
Nobody seems to realize that, for what the 950 is (or was), it ain't that porky. You can't compare it to anything else, because it's in a class of one.

The new beast.......................
"Not that porky" does not mean that it could not be made lighter, does it? Luckily there have been 10 years since the introduction of the 950 with no revolutionary design changes since, and technology has moved on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by triplenickel View Post
I'm really not sure where some people (not you obviously) would expect the savings to come from with an 800 if all else was equal or close to equal with the 9X0's. You want slightly less HP, but with suspension and fuel capacity it's gonna make it end up damn close to the same. Just compare the 9x0 to the current crop of less suspended, less powerful 800 offerings from the competition, they aren't very far apart and with the common mods like exhaust get even closer. We all agree the HP is a big part of what makes the 9X0's so much fun and so good on the boring bits and we want to take that away for a few kg's? No thanks.
Really? Come on guys, it's not rocket science....

The weight difference between a 690 and a 990 (non ABS!) is around 140 lbs, with the engines accounting for around 40 lbs of that. Considering the smaller displacement and that manufacturing technologies have improved, a die cast 700-800cc twin engine should be at least 10 lbs lighter than the 990, probably more.

So you've got around 110 lbs difference after the engine, you don't think you can beef up a 690 chassis enough to deal with 80-90 horses and add a fairing and be left over with a significant portion of that? The 450RR rear tank that bolts to the 690 chassis is available already and weighs maybe 1 lb more, and with it's 18 liters of fuel will give you better range than a 990 has.

And don't forget that the 690 already has 48mm forks, 21"/18" wheels with Dirt Star rims, the same brakes as the 950SE and that the 690 rally replicas and even the factory LC4 rally bikes (some sporting a >80HP 730cc engine) run through the desert at up to 200 km/h for two weeks during the Dakar using that same trellis frame and I have never heard of anybody having problems, have you?

I think with some modern and creative engineering a 80-90 HP 700-800cc twin with 360-380lbs (wet no fuel) is a realistic goal, and I'd buy one tomorrow.
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Old 10-28-2012, 10:03 AM   #1528
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Sorry, Dude. But think about what you're asking for.

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Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
Why do you guys keep recommending bikes if you have not even ridden them? It's pretty obvious that you have never taken a 690 on the highway or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The 690 is pretty light and makes a lot of power for a single but it is nowhere near as smooth as a twin could be (neither the 654 nor the 690cc version), and with the close ratio 6-speed you either gear it to work well off road OR the highway, you can't have both. I also trust my Husaberg more than I would trust a 690 so I see no reason to carry the extra 60 lbs.

I enjoy performance and light weight so I'm not interested in a DR, been there, done that (including a full KTM suspension swap).
It is true, I've never ridden a 690, but I have owned and ridden a KLR and DR, and now own a 990.

So, you want KTM to build a 750/800 cc twin, similar to the Tiger/BMW F800GS, but you want it to weigh 350 lbs, be suitable for highway purposes, and handle like an MX bike off-road. Plus, you want it to be reasonably priced and strong. Damn, that is a pretty tall order for any maker. They would need to shave 200-ish cc's off the 990, and find a way to lose 80-100 lbs. That means tiny tank, skinny seat, and little or no wind protection.

I think you have a better chance of riding a unicorn

All in fun, mate. We all have our wish list, but I've yet to see a single bike fit everyone needs absolutely perfectly. There are always compromises.
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Old 10-28-2012, 10:10 AM   #1529
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Back on topic--When is the 1190 coming to the USA?

Any updates? It has been pulled from the US website, and other than some reports from inmates talking to US dealers (who don't seem to have a lot of reliable information), there has been no mention of it hitting US soil any time soon.

This bike has a lot of appeal for me....I find myself pounding more pavement miles and gravel/forest road as a percentage of ride time, so for me this bike makes a lot of sense. I don't mind lubing chains, and I'm severely allergic to FD failures, so for me it seems like a strong option.
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Old 10-28-2012, 10:12 AM   #1530
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Originally Posted by bikepharmer View Post
It is true, I've never ridden a 690, but I have owned and ridden a KLR and DR, and now own a 990.

So, you want KTM to build a 750/800 cc twin, similar to the Tiger/BMW F800GS, but you want it to weigh 350 lbs, be suitable for highway purposes, and handle like an MX bike off-road. Plus, you want it to be reasonably priced and strong. Damn, that is a pretty tall order for any maker. They would need to shave 200-ish cc's off the 990, and find a way to lose 80-100 lbs. That means tiny tank, skinny seat, and little or no wind protection.

I think you have a better chance of riding a unicorn

All in fun, mate. We all have our wish list, but I've yet to see a single bike fit everyone needs absolutely perfectly. There are always compromises.
You should catch up on the thread before posting your reply, I've demonstrated the math.

690 weighs 312 lbs, tell me what is unrealistic about adding another cylinder and making everything a bit more heavy duty if you've got an extra 50-60 lbs to play with as I have outlined?
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