2013 Dakar - On 4 wheels

[ZequeArgentina]

Yep, he was excluded, but it was in fact the FFSA (French Federation of motorsports) the one who confirmed its excliussion.

It would really be a pitty if RG quits from Dakar

[homerj]

Originally Posted by ZequeArgentina

Yep, he was excluded, but it was in fact the FFSA (French Federation of motorsports) the one who confirmed its excliussion.

It would really be a pitty if RG quits from Dakar

Was he excluded from competing this year, or was he just excluded from last years results?

[Moto Benny in MTL]

Hello boys. I'm going back for 2013. Everyone always says you're best to wait a few months to decide but I knew right away that I wanted to try again.

Rally Raid UK have been busy all year building a new vehicle for this second attempt. I wish Patrick Beaule, my co-driver from last year, could be back by my side, but I'm so happy for him. He's entered this year on a KTM450RR. I really believe he'll do well. He was an awesome co-driver and it gave him a chance to really learn Dakar navigation without the added stress of riding! Pat is an amazing "all-day" rider. He has the perfect attitude for the Dakar and I'm willing to bet he'll finish top 30 if not a bit better.

The new vehicle will have the same engine/tranny as last year (BMW 3.0L TD with a six speed ZF) but we're moving to much tougher differentials. Rather than Defender 110 equipment (with ashcroft internals) we're going with Ford 9" diffs running ARB lockers in front and electric lockers in back.

But the big difference will be independent suspension on all 4 corners. Last year, we had live axle suspension - a great reliable set-up but a very rough ride and certainly a limiting factor in certain terrain. It was the right choice for a first attempt ("we just want to finish") but now it's time to step it up. If I'm not mistaken, there was only one live axle (front and rear) team in front of us in the final standings.

We wanted to run Bosch ECU but there just isn't enough time to get it mapped so we have to stick with the BMW ECU. As is it makes fine power (285 hp and 600 lb-ft) but the issue is that the MAF sensor is always getting clogged when we go through fesh-fesh.

My co-driver was supposed to be Lee Fryberger - an awesome guy who runs the Corner Grass Racing Team out of Alberta. Lee is a master moto mechanic, and a full blooded off-road guy. He's also hilarious. Unfortunately, because the car is so last minute and is a first time build for RRUK, I have to approach things a different way. It looks like I'll be going with Paul Round. Paul is one of the owners of RRUK and is the guy who's building the new car. He's also been in 15+ dakars and is an amazing navigator.

We test the car for the first time this coming weekend. Scary, since the ship from France leaves 3 weeks later! But that's the reality of building a car from A to Z on a reasonable (for Dakar) budget. The good news is that it looks absolutely amazing and it should be pretty bug free since engine/tranny/ecu are all the same as last year. We'll spend our time on suspension and trying to find bugs!

Here's an image (hopefully I figured it out) of the line drawing with our graphics ideas. I'll send real photos next week once Paul lets me actually see the thing!

Dave B

[Deadly99]

Good luck Dave

[ZequeArgentina]

Originally Posted by Moto Benny in MTL

Hello boys. I'm going back for 2013. Everyone always says you're best to wait a few months to decide but I knew right away that I wanted to try again.

Rally Raid UK have been busy all year building a new vehicle for this second attempt. I wish Patrick Beaule, my co-driver from last year, could be back by my side, but I'm so happy for him. He's entered this year on a KTM450RR. I really believe he'll do well. He was an awesome co-driver and it gave him a chance to really learn Dakar navigation without the added stress of riding! Pat is an amazing "all-day" rider. He has the perfect attitude for the Dakar and I'm willing to bet he'll finish top 30 if not a bit better.

The new vehicle will have the same engine/tranny as last year (BMW 3.0L TD with a six speed ZF) but we're moving to much tougher differentials. Rather than Defender 110 equipment (with ashcroft internals) we're going with Ford 9" diffs running ARB lockers in front and electric lockers in back.

But the big difference will be independent suspension on all 4 corners. Last year, we had live axle suspension - a great reliable set-up but a very rough ride and certainly a limiting factor in certain terrain. It was the right choice for a first attempt ("we just want to finish") but now it's time to step it up. If I'm not mistaken, there was only one live axle (front and rear) team in front of us in the final standings.

We wanted to run Bosch ECU but there just isn't enough time to get it mapped so we have to stick with the BMW ECU. As is it makes fine power (285 hp and 600 lb-ft) but the issue is that the MAF sensor is always getting clogged when we go through fesh-fesh.

My co-driver was supposed to be Lee Fryberger - an awesome guy who runs the Corner Grass Racing Team out of Alberta. Lee is a master moto mechanic, and a full blooded off-road guy. He's also hilarious. Unfortunately, because the car is so last minute and is a first time build for RRUK, I have to approach things a different way. It looks like I'll be going with Paul Round. Paul is one of the owners of RRUK and is the guy who's building the new car. He's also been in 15+ dakars and is an amazing navigator.

We test the car for the first time this coming weekend. Scary, since the ship from France leaves 3 weeks later! But that's the reality of building a car from A to Z on a reasonable (for Dakar) budget. The good news is that it looks absolutely amazing and it should be pretty bug free since engine/tranny/ecu are all the same as last year. We'll spend our time on suspension and trying to find bugs!

Here's an image (hopefully I figured it out) of the line drawing with our graphics ideas. I'll send real photos next week once Paul lets me actually see the thing!

Dave B

Great!! hosre were the previously known as Dessert Warriors? They looked similar to the Bowlers, at least in the past, but shape has evolved now.

Cant you by pass on demand the MAF sensor to a standard value at the moment it cloggs?

[troy safari carpente]

Originally Posted by Moto Benny in MTL

Here's an image (hopefully I figured it out) of the line drawing with our graphics ideas. I'll send real photos next week once Paul lets me actually see the thing!

Dave B

Hi Dave;

The body looks good mate... You mentioned that the new car is independant all round... Is chassis/suspension on the new car the same/similar to the RRUK proto that Geoff Olholm ran the last two years? (Geoff is running an overdrive Hilux for this year).

Good luck with the test/final preparations and of course the run in January... regards to Paul, Beady and the crew.

Troy c.

[Uller]

Can one of you smarter people answer a question for me?

I recall Robby G mentioning in one of his videos last year that the intake restrictor that he had to install on his motor limited it to something around 350 HP.

However, that article above about the Nasser Buggy stated this,"Although the Dakar/FIA regulations will eventually have some changes in the team website information about their cars realize that the engines have the awesome power of 735 Bhp."

Did the V8 engine regs change enough this year that you can now run a V8 with that much more HP than last year or am I misremembering what I heard?

Thanks!

[tehdutchie]

Loving the look on the Aldo car!

Good luck out there!!!

[Moto Benny in MTL]

Originally Posted by ZequeArgentina

Great!! hosre were the previously known as Dessert Warriors? They looked similar to the Bowlers, at least in the past, but shape has evolved now.

Cant you by pass on demand the MAF sensor to a standard value at the moment it cloggs?

Hi there,

Paul Round, the owner of Rally Raid UK, was the original inventor of the Bowler but he decided to part ways with that company and build his own machines. The first generation were called Desert Warriors. This new one is called a Desert Warrior 3 (very creative name...). The second generation was also an independent but it had a different body style. It was the one that Geoff Olholm raced last year (to answer Troy's question).

As for you other question, I have no idea! That's a question for RRUK. I'll get back to you.

[Moto Benny in MTL]

Originally Posted by troy safari carpente

Hi Dave;

The body looks good mate... You mentioned that the new car is independant all round... Is chassis/suspension on the new car the same/similar to the RRUK proto that Geoff Olholm ran the last two years? (Geoff is running an overdrive Hilux for this year).

Good luck with the test/final preparations and of course the run in January... regards to Paul, Beady and the crew.

Troy c.

Hi Troy,

Thanks for your post. Can't wait to see the real thing. The chassis/suspension is very similar to what Geoff had. Paul really believes in slow evolution in that it keeps costs down and improves reliability. I can't wait to see Geoff's Hilux - those things looked amazing last year and I'm sure they'll be even better with the new engines.

I'll say hi to BD and Paul for you. Take care

DB

[Brads600]

It's time to show and tell. We all know Robby is running hard with his SST project but with NBC on his side why wouldn't he look to be involved.

so just the other day Mr Gordon is on the Twitter saying things like this.....

Robby Gordon ‏@RobbyGordon don't always believe what you read RT @thomasengrav: @RobbyGordon Dakar? Word on the forums is that you're devoting 100% to SST nxt yr



So I think it's time, what you think?

[troy safari carpente]

I was having a wander through the ASO Dakar Tech Reg's for AUTO's last night... and pursuant to a couple of discussions here, found some interesting "modifications" (to both the cars... and the rulebook ) for 2013... Here is a synopsis

Originally Posted by tehdutchie

Engines (in T1) now need to be production based, so they have chosen high end powerful V8's, they will now outrun (as the Toyota's do) the X3's that had to revert back to standard BMW diesels...

As dutchie wrote, in principle all engines now in the premier T1 category (diesel or petrol) have to be original/standard components; homologated* under the FIA from manufacturers production model range. (You can use different engines from different models - as long as from same manufacturer).
*Homologation = 2500 production units/in 12 consecutive months as on sale to public in production vehicles).

ie: No more hand built factory special engines:

In general, the major components that must be stock are: Engine block, Crank, Connect rods, Pistons, valve train, cylinder head... all must be series production units.

So while on paper the Hilux's now get more ponies from the bigger 4.8 liter Lexus V8 (4.5 engine in 2012) and the MINI's have to go back to production based 3,0 liter BMW diesel... the Hilux has a max inlet restrictor diameter of 36mm to feed the V8... the MINI's have 38mm to feed the bi-turbo diesel.

And then there is still the minimum weight thing to consider;

Under the FIA min weight table - the 4,8 liter Hilux's must weigh in at no less than 1975 kg's (dry)... but the little MINI's only 1675 kg's (dry). In other words, the MINI full tanked will weigh about the same at the start line as the empty V8 Hilux (which is going to have to carry at least 400 liters to feed that engine?)... So on the long tough dune stages... the MINI will be at a distinct weight advantage for the first third/two thirds of the stages... It's not a cake walk for the Hilux's by any means.

Originally Posted by ZequeArgentina

I would bet the Mitsu ASX has also a Ford V8 in it.
My guess is because the car is developed and preapred in France by ex Mitsu Ralliart head, Viardot. This same Viardot is helping the Nederlanders (prepared by Wevers Sports), including the switch to Ford V8.
So it is a question of economy of scales, and finding same problems to takle, and same solutions.

Regards the "FORD V8 engine in a MITSUBISHI chassis" discussion:

There is an interesting new(ly introduced for DAKAR 2013) rule in the latest AUTO Tech Reg's, under 2P3 "Advertising" which simply states; "The engine manufacturer is not necessarily linked to the car/manufacturer name"...

Curiously enough this is the exact OPPOSITE of what it used to be - and still is; under the FIA technical Regs for CCR - where to be considered a "factory entry" eligible for the manufacturer award/general classification, the engine and chassis must be of the same make/brand.

So it would appear this simple "advertising clause" change HAS indeed made it possible for the Misubishi/RalliArt squad to build a Ford V8 engined ASX and enter it... as you suspect Zeque.

Which leads me to draw the conclusion that Mssr Viardot has taken over the French mantle from former title holder - JL Schlesser - as the #1 seeded "off season rule Tech Reg's racer", and is taking the battle to the X-Raid and Hallspeed guys to see who can get the most performance out of the rulebook...

Originally Posted by Uller

Can one of you smarter people answer a question for me?

I recall Robby G mentioning in one of his videos last year that the intake restrictor that he had to install on his motor limited it to something around 350 HP.

However, that article above about the Nasser Buggy stated this,"Although the Dakar/FIA regulations will eventually have some changes in the team website information about their cars realize that the engines have the awesome power of 735 Bhp."

Did the V8 engine regs change enough this year that you can now run a V8 with that much more HP than last year or am I misremembering what I heard?

Thanks!

If Nasser's boys in California are building a (from the ground up) V8 based/rear engined buggy specifically for DAKAR in the FIA T1 or OPEN 1 (SCORE eligible) category... they are limited to a maximum of 5.4 liters engine capacity and the induction manifold must breathe through a restrictor of a diameter not more than 37,2 mm and a minimum weight of just 1400 kg's.

Now I am not sure what "trickery" the engine tech's in Cali' can achieve with that restrictor limitation (735 Hp seem's more like a figure for a "full house SCORE spec' Trophy Truck engine)... but even if they can get 350-400 out of a restricted one, with the light weight, a good balance/suspension set up - as we've seen with RG in past, it could be more than competitive (on paper at least). I don't think we'll se no 700 + horsepower Qatar buggy in Lima... 350 to 400 sound about right.

[troy safari carpente]

Originally Posted by Brads600

It's time to show and tell. We all know Robby is running hard with his SST project but with NBC on his side why wouldn't he look to be involved.

so just the other day Mr Gordon is on the Twitter saying things like this.....

Robby Gordon ‏@RobbyGordon don't always believe what you read RT @thomasengrav: @RobbyGordon Dakar? Word on the forums is that you're devoting 100% to SST nxt yr



So I think it's time, what you think?

I had a similar discussion last year with an inmate from the states on the topic of RG's Hummbuggy and it's (continued) eligibility under the DAKAR rules for 2012/2013 onwards...

When Gordon's team first built the first version of the Hummer (back in 2005/06 ?) there was a pretty diffuse rule in the ASO/DAKAR rule about the admittance of documented SCORE vehicles competing at Dakar (even though not strictly adhering to the FIA Tech regs the rally is generally conducted under*). But in principle, it accepted vehicles that had a documented technical passport (racing log book) and competition history with SCORE.

* Since 1998 the DAKAR has always run under it's own (version) Technical regulations as far as vehicle eligibilty/specification goes... but broadly based on the FIA World Cup/CCR technical regulations - they have historically made some of their own amendments/allowances... especially as regards the inclusion of 2WD and SCORE vehicles for "high profile" competitors. A.k.a. the "Schlesser/RG" technical bulletins.

Now the thing here is, that RG's Hummer was never (from beginning) a SCORE race vehicle, he and the team built the car with DAKAR in mind (they subsequently did race it in select SCORE events at various times for testing/promotion purposes), so in fact the DAKAR Hummbuggy was never rally one or the other... kind of a "special case" that ASO definately saw as a drawcard, they wanted in the event... so the eligibility criteria were "massaged" on a year to year basis... In some respects.

Now one of the key things regards all this (quite aside from weight specifications, engine placement/capacity formula's, suspension travel limits, wheel diameter allowances or whether you can have a restricted tyre inflator, or iflation assisted inlet restrictor fitted to your vehicle ) is that ALL of the SCORE vehicles admitted to compete in DAKAR 2013 must have a technical passport from between 2006 (exact date 31st Dec 2005) and 2010...

It is my understanding that this rule exists so that the newer Trophy Trucks spec SCORE vehicles are NOT able to participate in the Dakar... deemed to be too technically advanced/brutal in terms of engine output, wheel travel and performance in general. Coincidentally the dates effectively put a "used by date" or limited lifespan of any SCORE vehicle to be entered at Dakar... in particular - in this case - the Hummbuggy as a platform for the Gordon team?

As I understood the rules (even last year) that RG's rig was on the last year of its "passport" as far as eligibilty in it's present form for DAKAR is concerned....

Now that is not to say that the Hummer/buggy could not be re-built and re-configured under the FIA T1 2WD regulations... This is possibly what Al Attiyahs California based team are doing? But as far as I can determine RG's SPEED Hummer last year was running (2011/2012) on the last of it's "use by date" as far as the passport/rule book goes.

Has he "re-built" the car(s)... has he got another extension on the paperwork...? What was the end result of the FFSA exclusion...?
Has RG decided to concentrate on his domestic US racing program and dis the Dakar? (what is SST...? )

He adds a great dimesion to the racing in his "all american" approach to the event... would be great to see him in Lima again...
but to date, no concrete announcement from his side as far as I have seen...?

Maybe he's playing his cards close to his chest... testing some new solutions out there in the Mojave somewhere...
and preparing to whoop some Mini-skirts and Sth African farm trucks in January...???

[troy safari carpente]

Originally Posted by Brads600

It's time to show and tell. We all know Robby is running hard with his SST project but with NBC on his side why wouldn't he look to be involved?

Originally Posted by troy safari carpente

Has RG decided to concentrate on his domestic US racing program and dis the Dakar? (what is SST...? )

I google it... and found some news on SST (Stadium Super Truck) series that RG is behind. Look's like he is reviving the old MTEG series concept (back to where he got his first big break with Toyota PPI) and bringing stadium truck off road back to the big arenas?

I could see how a project of that size could keep you busy/focussed and away from Dakar...

Guess we'll see when the entry list comes out... or RG makes an anouncement?

[Aquatic]

Originally Posted by troy safari carpente

I was having a wander through the ASO Dakar Tech Reg's for AUTO's last night... and pursuant to a couple of discussions here, found some interesting "modifications" (to both the cars... and the rulebook ) for 2013... Here is a synopsis



As dutchie wrote, in principle all engines now in the premier T1 category (diesel or petrol) have to be original/standard components; homologated* under the FIA from manufacturers production model range. (You can use different engines from different models - as long as from same manufacturer).
*Homologation = 2500 production units/in 12 consecutive months as on sale to public in production vehicles).

ie: No more hand built factory special engines:

In general, the major components that must be stock are: Engine block, Crank, Connect rods, Pistons, valve train, cylinder head... all must be series production units.

So while on paper the Hilux's now get more ponies from the bigger 4.8 liter Lexus V8 (4.5 engine in 2012) and the MINI's have to go back to production based 3,0 liter BMW diesel... the Hilux has a max inlet restrictor diameter of 36mm to feed the V8... the MINI's have 38mm to feed the bi-turbo diesel.

And then there is still the minimum weight thing to consider;

Under the FIA min weight table - the 4,8 liter Hilux's must weigh in at no less than 1975 kg's (dry)... but the little MINI's only 1675 kg's (dry). In other words, the MINI full tanked will weigh about the same at the start line as the empty V8 Hilux (which is going to have to carry at least 400 liters to feed that engine?)... So on the long tough dune stages... the MINI will be at a distinct weight advantage for the first third/two thirds of the stages... It's not a cake walk for the Hilux's by any means.



Regards the "FORD V8 engine in a MITSUBISHI chassis" discussion:

There is an interesting new(ly introduced for DAKAR 2013) rule in the latest AUTO Tech Reg's, under 2P3 "Advertising" which simply states; "The engine manufacturer is not necessarily linked to the car/manufacturer name"...

Curiously enough this is the exact OPPOSITE of what it used to be - and still is; under the FIA technical Regs for CCR - where to be considered a "factory entry" eligible for the manufacturer award/general classification, the engine and chassis must be of the same make/brand.

So it would appear this simple "advertising clause" change HAS indeed made it possible for the Misubishi/RalliArt squad to build a Ford V8 engined ASX and enter it... as you suspect Zeque.

Which leads me to draw the conclusion that Mssr Viardot has taken over the French mantle from former title holder - JL Schlesser - as the #1 seeded "off season rule Tech Reg's racer", and is taking the battle to the X-Raid and Hallspeed guys to see who can get the most performance out of the rulebook...



If Nasser's boys in California are building a (from the ground up) V8 based/rear engined buggy specifically for DAKAR in the FIA T1 or OPEN 1 (SCORE eligible) category... they are limited to a maximum of 5.4 liters engine capacity and the induction manifold must breathe through a restrictor of a diameter not more than 37,2 mm and a minimum weight of just 1400 kg's.

Now I am not sure what "trickery" the engine tech's in Cali' can achieve with that restrictor limitation (735 Hp seem's more like a figure for a "full house SCORE spec' Trophy Truck engine)... but even if they can get 350-400 out of a restricted one, with the light weight, a good balance/suspension set up - as we've seen with RG in past, it could be more than competitive (on paper at least). I don't think we'll se no 700 + horsepower Qatar buggy in Lima... 350 to 400 sound about right.

Many thanks for that Troy.
With regards to the weights of the different classes, That seem a very big difference! 1400kg - 1975kg.
Even the 300kg difference for your choice of fuel. These days diesel motors are no longer the sluggish smokers of old. And they get an 2 asthma pumps to boot. I would say even at even weight the diesels would have an advantage for a good part of the rally stages