Can KTM build a significantly lighter 700-800cc twin? Is there a market for it?

[Bob599]

How much does that Highland weigh?

Found it 280lbs. More gas tanks, heavier sub frame for luggage. HMMM may have found the unicorn?

[cjracer]

Don't forget SEAT HIGHT.

Everyone wants a 30" tall seat hight with 12" suspension travel.....

Are riders looking for this bike willing to only be able to get a toe down at stop lights?

My 950 has a 39" seat hight. Anyone want to take it for a test lap should do so before they order up a TALL bike, then want the suspension shortened so they can get both feet down.

See you soon Bob.

[cjracer]

Originally Posted by Bob599

How much does that Highland weigh?

Found it 280lbs. More gas tanks, heavier sub frame for luggage. HMMM may have found the unicorn?

Compaired to my 950 SE, the 950 Highland felt like a 525.

[yellowbronco]

I almost pulled the trigger on a 950 Highland right before the tragedy that took their top company officers. If they were still in business and building those bikes, I'd definitely have one. I just wasn't too keen on the fueling issues that are evident in the Youtube video of someone riding the 950 supermoto. CJracer, I definitely envy you the ride you got because I never had the opportunity to spin one.

The last time I was on the swedish highland websight (apparently the swedish group still has the rights to the name) it was just a copy of the US Highland site. Now the page is blank. Part of me hopes that the engines are still going to be available. However, the technology in their engines dates back to Husqvarna in the 70's and I have to believe that KTM can do better. I seriously question if dual overhead cams is necessary (the Highland appears to be DOHC). Clearly Honda didn't think so with the Unicam design. I recall a few magazines saying that you just couldn't get the rpm's necessary for a competitive 450 with a single cam. If the new Dungey bike engine is any indication, that logic is flawed.

[Schannulleke]

Originally Posted by yellowbronco

Now the page is blank.

Try again. Not blank when I go to www.highland.se

[rununtilempty]

Agreed ! No one who spends any amount of time in the mojave wants a short-suspended bike with soft springs; plenty of those on the street, but any time beating up your spine and you will soon realize the value of suspension travel. . . . imho

Originally Posted by wilmar13

Oh bugger off! Seriously, there are already a million lame bikes... A REAL off road bike needs to have real suspension. Buy a f650gs if you are short and need to flat foot it.

[rununtilempty]

. . . and WHY are we trying to build an even heavier 690? Mine has an FMF system and with that alone makes nearly 70 hp . . . KTM makes hop-up kits which, when used in conjunction with each other, produce 80 or more. This can be seen most commonly with 690 Duke mods I have seen advertised . . . same LC4 engine . . . and I am NOT unhappy with the power from my bike.

I believe a twin would be fun in the 690's frame; however, the same output can be achieved with much less weight penalty. . . . imho

Great discussion though . . .

Originally Posted by LukasM

Lot's of discussion about this topic in the 1190 thread already, so in order not to derail it any more I'm starting a new thread.

Many of the "old school" 950/990 owners are claiming that this would be a useless exercise as you would just give up a lot of horsepower for only a couple of lbs of weight loss.

Well, I don't agree.

The weight difference between a 690 and a 990 (non ABS!) is around 140 lbs, with the engines accounting for around 40 lbs of that. Considering the smaller displacement and that manufacturing technologies have improved, a die cast 700-800cc twin engine should be at least 10 lbs lighter than the 990, probably more.

So you've got around 110 lbs difference after the engine, you don't think you can beef up a 690 chassis enough to deal with 80-90 horses and add a fairing and be left over with a significant portion of that? The 450RR rear tank that bolts to the 690 chassis is available already and weighs maybe 1 lb more, and with it's 18 liters of fuel will give you better range than a 990 has.

And don't forget that the 690 already has 48mm forks, 21"/18" wheels with Dirt Star rims, the same brakes as the 950SE and that the 690 rally replicas and even the factory LC4 rally bikes (some sporting a >80HP 730cc engine) run through the desert at up to 200 km/h for two weeks during the Dakar using that same trellis frame and I have never heard of anybody having problems, have you?

I think with some modern and creative engineering a 80-90 HP 700-800cc twin with 360-380lbs (wet no fuel) is a realistic goal, and I'd buy one tomorrow.


What do you guys think?

[Flanny]

I believe a twin would be fun in the 690's frame; however, the same output can be achieved with much less weight penalty.

[xcflyn]

Originally Posted by rununtilempty

. . . and WHY are we trying to build an even heavier 690? Mine has an FMF system and with that alone makes nearly 70 hp . . . KTM makes hop-up kits which, when used in conjunction with each other, produce 80 or more. This can be seen most commonly with 690 Duke mods I have seen advertised . . . same LC4 engine . . . and I am NOT unhappy with the power from my bike.

I believe a twin would be fun in the 690's frame; however, the same output can be achieved with much less weight penalty. . . . imho

Great discussion though . . .

I think its the reliability stand point ? Not too many quality built thumpers will out live a quality built twin is a point that is being made. At he same time- the XR650R motor was no slouch and despite some short comings many could be pounded day after day and still see 30+K untouched and that was 90's technology. The BMW Rotax is a bit of a slouch but it will do some big miles. If the 690 had its power and the longevity of a g650 motor (generally speaking) it would be more desirable, but then it is still a single and the words buzz and tingle would still be in the description.

[jerdog53]

What I guess bothers me the most it that KTM will invest in building a 375 twin for the Duke for sale in lesser world countries, dumb it down and sell volumes rather than build a midsized twin to put into a slightly modified 690 frame


http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumors/ktm-375-duke/#more-36236

[Chadx]

Originally Posted by rununtilempty

. . . and WHY are we trying to build an even heavier 690? Mine has an FMF system and with that alone makes nearly 70 hp . . . KTM makes hop-up kits which, when used in conjunction with each other, produce 80 or more. .

Because we are not only talking about a hp increase. That is probably the smallest piece of the puzzle. We are talking about a more road worthy bike able to carry two people and supplies for adventure riding. Also a reliable bike. Wind protection. Smoother engine at hwy speed, etc.

Perhaps they could start with the 690 platform, throw in a twin, as you mention, beef up the frame and subframe as needed, change the gas tank layout to get the capacity up, update the plastics to get wind protection, update the suspension and brakes for the extra weight, etc. ....but by then, why not just start with a clean sheet so you are not constrained by trying to adapt a platform that was designed for a different use?

Then again, I might be able to live with a 690 if they came out with an Adventure version with really widended transmission ratios (to give us a granny 1st and still a low rpm hwy gearing all at once), strong subframe for passenger/gear, expanded gas tank, made it reliable, etc.

[sailah]

Hmmm, I've been wishing they would build one for years. In the mean time I've been rolling my own out of my little garage.

Lots of guys have done a reasonable conversion out of the Kawasaki parallel twin which is the perfect candidate for what many of you want. Good power, lightweight, bulletproof, fuel injected with good range. All you need to do is rebuild the subframe to accommodate a KTM rear suspension and start trimming the fat.

Plus it would be a crapload cheaper than a new bike

[Chadx]

This has been posted before in other threads, but to throw some gas on this thread, this article is the one that mentions the 1190 platform will potentially be used for multiple adventure bikes in various classes. Not sure how they'd take the 1190 frame, make it an 800 that is what is quoted in the article...but it will be interesting to see if that happens.

"the smaller displacement Adventure bike will be very off-road capable, more so than the Triumph Tiger 800XC".
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumo...es-2013-rumor/

[Unruled]

I'm currently 'in the market' for an adventure bike and I've testridden a few. The 800GS was plain boring and the Tiger 800 a big disappointment. When I tried a 950 I was instantly sold. I'm used to the massive grunt of a Bandit 1200 and the 800's don't have it. The Triumph is actually very smooth but it's a road engine, I plan to go offroading a lot more. That thing has non-stop power, but it's just so boring. Also, on-road, where it's supposed to shine, it just didn't, the KTM was so much better. I actually blame the frame and suspension, which are quite frankly of a lower grade. That's what I'm afraid of KTM would do if that need to build a bike that's lighter and cheaper, but also a twin. Don't forget it's just 100cc's, that's not very shocking if you intend to lose weight. The frame can't go much lighter if you want 80hp, as that's not a shocking difference either. Quite frankly they'd need to sacrifice stiffness and thus roadholding. If that's what would happen, I'd definitely buy the 'old' 950/990 in stead.

That said, it would kind of make sense to introduce a smaller bike if an 1190 with 150hp is otherwise the only option.

[Chadx]

Originally Posted by sailah

Lots of guys have done a reasonable conversion out of the Kawasaki parallel twin which is the perfect candidate for what many of you want. Good power, lightweight, bulletproof, fuel injected with good range. All you need to do is rebuild the subframe to accommodate a KTM rear suspension and start trimming the fat. Plus it would be a crapload cheaper than a new bike

So it is the various Kawasaki Versys/Ninja 650 builds to which you refer? I've followed several of those with interest. I like to tinker, but haven't been willing to bite off that much of a project.