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Old 10-31-2012, 04:15 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by ZequeArgentina View Post
Yep, he was excluded, but it was in fact the FFSA (French Federation of motorsports) the one who confirmed its exclusion.

It would really be a pity if RG quits from Dakar
If his car did in fact pass tech as he says, and then they change their minds mid race, would you be inclined to spend all that money and effort again? How could he even get sponsors if they see that his entry can be dq'd on a whim?
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:48 AM   #47
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If his car did in fact pass tech as he says, and then they change their minds mid race, would you be inclined to spend all that money and effort again? How could he even get sponsors if they see that his entry can be dq'd on a whim?

RG owns his sponsor (speed energy drink) so no worries there. Also he doesn't need to win to give his sponsors publicity as he gets as much if not more air time than any other car even when he doesn't win.

I could see him not xompeting out of spite for the ruling but I could also see him entering until he wins the race one of these years.

Time will tell
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:53 AM   #48
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If his car did in fact pass tech as he says, and then they change their minds mid race, would you be inclined to spend all that money and effort again? How could he even get sponsors if they see that his entry can be dq'd on a whim?
FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL... one final time, been posted several times on several differnt places, by several different people here - including Anders Green, myself amongst others - AND IT IS IN THE RULEBOOK...

Tech inspection at DAKAR (or any other rally for that matter) does NOT ratify a vehicle as conforming to the Technical regulations... It is primarily a check of the administrative and saftey/technical aspects of the crew and vehicle to ensure the vehicle is fit to compete... not a confirmation of its technical eligibility. (THIS goes for moto's, quads, trucks etc. as well... for that matter).

Yes, the scrutineers check that the safety equipment are approved, the car is weighed and the various certificates/ log books/homologation documents and tech passport are checked to see that all is in order and the vehicles paperwork conforms with the class for which it is entered.

To say that "the car passed tech... so they can't disqualify me" is an oversimplification of the procedure, effectively used as part of a defence intended to get sympathy/support of the unwashed public on side in an attempt to get the ruling overturned.

You cannot check all vehicles for technical conformity with all of the rules at scrutineering; else you would have closer to 400 vehicles torn down to the cylinder blocks in order to measure cylinder volumes, internal engine components etc. It's lidicrously impossible... and JUST as I saw Anders Green reply to a similar post late last year... THAT is what the purpose of "post-event" scrutineering is for... to check that the winners, place getters (and any protested vehicle) DO conform to the tech elegibilty requirements... Until that point, the oganisers/stewards assume that all vehicles are compliant as presented at scrutineering/documentation.

RG's claim that they had the Hummer "air inflation" tyre system "approved" by the FIA/ASO technical committee prior to the event may well be true... In as much as any team must make an application on the technical passport for such a thing.

But depending on how detailed the Gordon Team were with explaining WHERE THE VACCUUM FOR THE DEFLATION cycle of the system was drawn from (ie. a place in the induction manifold BEHIND the point where the air restrictor is fitted), then the tech stewards may not have been aware of the anomoly with the air restrictor regulation (ie: the exclusive prohibition for ANY air admission connection/bypass on the downward induction side of the restrictor) and when some clever individual pointed this out mid way through last years rally... the tech stewards followed the rule book to the letter... regardless of the practicalities of HOW the tyre inflation/deflation system worked, of whether it admitted extra air or not to the air intake sytem... The fact that there was an air hose connected to the manifold downstream of the restrictor is in contravention of the restrictor regulations (literally speaking) and that's what the excluded him for... and the FFSA dismissed RG's appeal some weeks after the rally... and he was strucken from the results... but still eligible to enter 2013, if he so wishes.

I hope he does... in a competitive vehicle... we will have to wait and see...
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:34 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by troy safari carpente View Post
FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL... one final time, been posted several times on several differnt places, by several different people here - including Anders Green, myself amongst others - AND IT IS IN THE RULEBOOK...

Tech inspection at DAKAR (or any other rally for that matter) does NOT ratify a vehicle as conforming to the Technical regulations... It is primarily a check of the administrative and saftey/technical aspects of the crew and vehicle to ensure the vehicle is fit to compete... not a confirmation of its technical eligibility. (THIS goes for moto's, quads, trucks etc. as well... for that matter).

Yes, the scrutineers check that the safety equipment are approved, the car is weighed and the various certificates/ log books/homologation documents and tech passport are checked to see that all is in order and the vehicles paperwork conforms with the class for which it is entered.

To say that "the car passed tech... so they can't disqualify me" is an oversimplification of the procedure, effectively used as part of a defence intended to get sympathy/support of the unwashed public on side in an attempt to get the ruling overturned.

You cannot check all vehicles for technical conformity with all of the rules at scrutineering; else you would have closer to 400 vehicles torn down to the cylinder blocks in order to measure cylinder volumes, internal engine components etc. It's lidicrously impossible... and JUST as I saw Anders Green reply to a similar post late last year... THAT is what the purpose of "post-event" scrutineering is for... to check that the winners, place getters (and any protested vehicle) DO conform to the tech elegibilty requirements... Until that point, the oganisers/stewards assume that all vehicles are compliant as presented at scrutineering/documentation.

RG's claim that they had the Hummer "air inflation" tyre system "approved" by the FIA/ASO technical committee prior to the event may well be true... In as much as any team must make an application on the technical passport for such a thing.

But depending on how detailed the Gordon Team were with explaining WHERE THE VACCUUM FOR THE DEFLATION cycle of the system was drawn from (ie. a place in the induction manifold BEHIND the point where the air restrictor is fitted), then the tech stewards may not have been aware of the anomoly with the air restrictor regulation (ie: the exclusive prohibition for ANY air admission connection/bypass on the downward induction side of the restrictor) and when some clever individual pointed this out mid way through last years rally... the tech stewards followed the rule book to the letter... regardless of the practicalities of HOW the tyre inflation/deflation system worked, of whether it admitted extra air or not to the air intake sytem... The fact that there was an air hose connected to the manifold downstream of the restrictor is in contravention of the restrictor regulations (literally speaking) and that's what the excluded him for... and the FFSA dismissed RG's appeal some weeks after the rally... and he was strucken from the results... but still eligible to enter 2013, if he so wishes.

I hope he does... in a competitive vehicle... we will have to wait and see...
Nice break down on the "rule" infraction. The letter of the law does rule the lay of the land at the end of the day, but it was nice to see RG coming back and showing that his next stage win had the "hose in question" not even connected, which of course led to the KMA statement. Love him or hate him RG brings an amazing story line to the event and a huge following not only in this country but is very much followed in South America.

This came out the other day from the Helix folks and can't stop laughing as the women in the add flys by the two Mini drivers walking back with out their car. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neRg9...ature=youtu.be

Looks like a good Mini/Helix battle is on the way, oh and don't forget that I will break your car guy (Nassar)

Brads600 screwed with this post 10-31-2012 at 06:37 AM Reason: missing words
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:14 AM   #50
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this came out the other day from the helix folks and can't stop laughing as the women in the add flys by the two mini drivers walking back with out their car. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nerg9...ature=youtu.be

looks like a good mini/helix battle is on the way, oh and don't forget that i will break your car guy (nassar)
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:41 AM   #51
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This came out the other day from the Helix folks and can't stop laughing as the women in the add flys by the two Mini drivers walking back with out their car. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neRg9...ature=youtu.be
I'm still laughing:

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Old 10-31-2012, 11:30 AM   #52
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Old 11-01-2012, 05:55 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by troy safari carpente View Post
FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL... one final time, been posted several times on several differnt places, by several different people here - including Anders Green, myself amongst others - AND IT IS IN THE RULEBOOK...

Tech inspection at DAKAR (or any other rally for that matter) does NOT ratify a vehicle as conforming to the Technical regulations... It is primarily a check of the administrative and saftey/technical aspects of the crew and vehicle to ensure the vehicle is fit to compete... not a confirmation of its technical eligibility. (THIS goes for moto's, quads, trucks etc. as well... for that matter).

Yes, the scrutineers check that the safety equipment are approved, the car is weighed and the various certificates/ log books/homologation documents and tech passport are checked to see that all is in order and the vehicles paperwork conforms with the class for which it is entered.

To say that "the car passed tech... so they can't disqualify me" is an oversimplification of the procedure, effectively used as part of a defence intended to get sympathy/support of the unwashed public on side in an attempt to get the ruling overturned.

You cannot check all vehicles for technical conformity with all of the rules at scrutineering; else you would have closer to 400 vehicles torn down to the cylinder blocks in order to measure cylinder volumes, internal engine components etc. It's lidicrously impossible... and JUST as I saw Anders Green reply to a similar post late last year... THAT is what the purpose of "post-event" scrutineering is for... to check that the winners, place getters (and any protested vehicle) DO conform to the tech elegibilty requirements... Until that point, the oganisers/stewards assume that all vehicles are compliant as presented at scrutineering/documentation.

RG's claim that they had the Hummer "air inflation" tyre system "approved" by the FIA/ASO technical committee prior to the event may well be true... In as much as any team must make an application on the technical passport for such a thing.

But depending on how detailed the Gordon Team were with explaining WHERE THE VACCUUM FOR THE DEFLATION cycle of the system was drawn from (ie. a place in the induction manifold BEHIND the point where the air restrictor is fitted), then the tech stewards may not have been aware of the anomoly with the air restrictor regulation (ie: the exclusive prohibition for ANY air admission connection/bypass on the downward induction side of the restrictor) and when some clever individual pointed this out mid way through last years rally... the tech stewards followed the rule book to the letter... regardless of the practicalities of HOW the tyre inflation/deflation system worked, of whether it admitted extra air or not to the air intake sytem... The fact that there was an air hose connected to the manifold downstream of the restrictor is in contravention of the restrictor regulations (literally speaking) and that's what the excluded him for... and the FFSA dismissed RG's appeal some weeks after the rally... and he was strucken from the results... but still eligible to enter 2013, if he so wishes.

I hope he does... in a competitive vehicle... we will have to wait and see...
That is a good explanation on how scrutenning and technical inspections work!
Sometimes people tend to confuse "media comments" like, "it has no performance gain" and so on. But FIA, FFSA or whatever regulations should only consider the "within te rules" or "out of the rules".
It it has been an intentionally undercovered trick, it is not only an uncompliance but a more serious case (E.g. Toyota case with Celica world rally cars)
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:45 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by ZequeArgentina View Post
Sometimes people tend to confuse "media comments" like, "it has no performance gain" and so on. But FIA, FFSA or whatever regulations should only consider the "within te rules" or "out of the rules".
If it has been an intentionally undercovered trick, it is not only an uncompliance but a more serious case (E.g. Toyota case with Celica world rally cars)
I would just like to clarify; that I don't believe that Gordon Hummer restrictor rule "infraction" was a deliberate attempt by RG's team to gain any kind of performance advantage or circumvent the air restrictor... Rather it was just a smart method to assist/speed up the deflation phase of the auto tyre inftation/deflation system on the vehicle. Unfortunately the position on the manifold where the team chose to couple the hose, was in contravention of the air restrictor regulations... and although the two (seemingly unrelated systems/function), it was something that never occured to the technicians on the Hummer team to "cross check" in the rulebook that it may create a problem. It was the FIA scrutineers suspicion that this hose may be used to allow extra air admission - and thereby achieve a performance increase - that led to the technical jury's inquiry in the first place, and fuelled the (sensationalised) media coverage of the incident... which of course culminated in RG disconecting the hose in question and the now infamous "...they can KMA" quote.

But be all that as it may, the hose was hooked up to a place where (according to the tech stewards interpretation of the rules) where it was not permitted... and the exclusion was upheld.

Now all of this is quite different to the famous Celica GT4 ST205 "turbo cheat" incident committed by TTE back in the 1995 WRC... (The incident that Zeque was referring to)

http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm

http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread/t-331465.html

Which was quite clearly a very well planned and ingeniously engineered attempt by the TTE engineers of the day to circumvent the FIA's turbo air restrictor regulation in WRC competition at that time.

A couple of TTE engineers/mechanics from that time (under the then leadership of Ove Andersson) are freinds/acquaintances of mine from the old days... and believe me, over a beer or two by a bivouac campfire one night; I could tell you a number of WRC/CCR stories (not just about Toyota mind you... but Mitsubishi, Citröen, Peugeot and Ford) where the rules have been broken (or at least bent)... and many times without being caught! All completely "off the record" and deniability of course!
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:05 PM   #55
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Sure, I was reffering to this case about the TTE and the Celicas.
Sorry, I may have not be clear, I am also not saying RG trying to intentionally obtained an advantsge forcing the rules.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:44 PM   #56
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A couple of TTE engineers/mechanics from that time (under the then leadership of Ove Andersson) are freinds/acquaintances of mine from the old days... and believe me, over a beer or two by a bivouac campfire one night; I could tell you a number of WRC/CCR stories (not just about Toyota mind you... but Mitsubishi, Citröen, Peugeot and Ford) where the rules have been broken (or at least bent)... and many times without being caught! All completely "off the record" and deniability of course!

I'll buy the beer!

Having worked with the engineers at Toyota Motorsport South Africa.(Before Glynn took over) and seen "some things" myself. I would like to sit in at this campfire please.
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:18 PM   #57
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A couple of TTE engineers/mechanics from that time (under the then leadership of Ove Andersson) are freinds/acquaintances of mine from the old days... and believe me, over a beer or two by a bivouac campfire one night; I could tell you a number of WRC/CCR stories (not just about Toyota mind you... but Mitsubishi, Citröen, Peugeot and Ford) where the rules have been broken (or at least bent)... and many times without being caught! All completely "off the record" and deniability of course!

I've been wondering since last year who was that brought to ASO's attention Robby Gordon's mischief.
It would take some inside knowledge or a hell of a guess to pinpoint where hoses go.
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:48 PM   #58
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page out of RGs play book?


SA-Dakar 2013: Al Attiyah, Sainz and Magnaldi together in new Dakar-Team.




The last international news abouth the former Southamerica Dakar winner Nasser Al-Attiyah will race in the 2013 Dakar with its own team seems almost confirmed. But the first rumors pointed to a team with two race cars, the second car should be as Nasser suport, now on the latest news realize a team with three race cars.

After making several contacts throughout the year, Nasser Al-Attiyah has hired the services of Jefferies Racing Californian company specializing in the off-road buggy´s manufacture to the United States Championship. Nasser has order to building three Buggy´s to be used on the 2013 Dakar January 5, 2013 in South America.

All these rumors, were coated even more interest when they began to speak in the Nasser team mates. Regarding the latest information, one of these buggy´s will be driven by the Spaniard Carlos Sainz, who should have received VW permitions, as part of the Polo WRC development program.

The remaining Buggy will be driven by French Thierry Magnaldi, former biker rider, who in the past few years has accumulated much experience with kind of buggy´s.

The Buggy´s are very similar´s to the Robby Gordon Hummer, these cars will only have rear wheel drive, and will be fitted with the powerfull V8 engine. Although the Dakar/FIA regulations will eventually have some changes in the team website information about their cars realize that the engines have the awesome power of 735 Bhp.

These cars have almost finished its construction, with the first testing session scheduled for 7-15 November. Carlos Sainz will not be present, as will other existing commitments.

2012/11/01 | 14:47 CET | ARTICLE: MR/HS/RRMG/RALLYRAID.ES/CEFRE
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:58 PM   #59
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I've been wondering since last year who was that brought to ASO's attention Robby Gordon's mischief.
It would take some inside knowledge or a hell of a guess to pinpoint where hoses go.
Not really...

I have an (unconfirmed) theory on how that one could have gone down...

If - as RG has always maintained - the air inflation system they ran in 2012 Dakar is the same as they have had for a few years, then there is every possibility that a spotter* from another team noticed something (during scrutineering - or in a bivouac) that did not "conform" as far back as even a year or two earlier.

*All of the factory teams at the top of WRC and CCR have technical staff (spotters or "in team" scrutineers/spies) who are intimately versed in the standard and technical regulations, whose job it is to keep an "eye" on what the other teams are up to.

Now rule number 1. in the game is; "if you are bending the rules... make sure you don't get caught".

Rule number 2. is; "If you catch someone else bending the rules... you have an ace in your hand."

Rule number 3. is; "Keeping an ace up your sleeve... for when you need one... it's dirty (but effective) poker..." or in other words; you don't need to protest someone who is not a threat.

RG's team was never really ever any sort of a threat to the "big guns" in 2009, 2010... perhaps 2011... so even if a "rival" team had spotted an anomaly with Gordons tyre deflation system or air restrictor (which IS inspected as part of pre-scrutineering process on the elite/factory T1 vehicles), there is absolutely no need to play that "ace" until needed.

It's speculation (and some hearsay) but there is every chance that the "restrictor infringement" could have been spotted and noted 12 months (or more) prior.

Once a "protest" is put into place... It does not even need to be successful in order to be effective (from a rival competitor teams viewpoint)... especially in a team where the "team manger/owner" and "lead driver" are one and the same... Getting them flustered enough to take their "eye of the ball" would be enough at that level to give the rival team drivers the edge out on the piste... Especially seeing as all they have to do is drive (not direct the service team schedule, park service vehicles, go to jury hearings and dig out bogged team trucks to boot ).

To say that RG is an integral and pivotal part of his operation is no understatement... I have no doubt he has capable people he delegates to... but from what you see (and I've heard), he is a pretty "hands on" type of guy, and can (at times) spread himself pretty thin... I have no doubt that there are other team bosses aware of this, and exploiting that fact is not something that they would be adverse to taking advantage of.

Now all this may seem pretty cloak and dagger, clandestine sort of stuff... but I can assure you - in the heyday of the Mitsubishi vs. Citröen vs. FIA days, this sort of tactic was commonplace. In fact, compared to some of the things that went on during the peak of the "T3 Proto" battles - out in the African deserts during the mid to late nineties... RG's "restrictor-gate" deal is pretty tame.

Gee... I sure hope RG is at the start line in Peru... What...? With the Hilux's, the MINIS, the Speed team and now Nasser/Carlos with their new "buggy specials"... Hell, it'll be like duelling pistols at ten paces from all four corners of the ring and dillingers hidden in their socks!
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:18 PM   #60
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Robby Gordon is his own worst enemy. Always has been. That being said, he will be there with his new deep pockets BFF Clyde Stacy. Clyde has cubic mega bucks and is a major Rubby leg humper. Rubby is leading the BITD class 1 points in a Clyde owned, Gieser built, TT without fenders. Rubby is racing the 1000 with Clyde's young gun from Mexico BITD TT driver in Rubby's TT.

As far as Nasser is concerned. The Jefferies cars are being built because one of Nasser's buddies had a Jefferies sand buggy everyone thought was too cool for school. Jefferies has zero experience building Dakar type vehicles. Simple things like putting a windshield on a buggy changes everything and cooling/air flow becomes a major issue. Again, Jefferies has zero experience with any building, let alone prepping of a Dakar vehicle. Neither Nasser nor Carlos will make it as far as Nasser did in the RGM prepped buggy last year. Mark my words.
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