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View Results: Would you buy a 370 lbs wet, 80-90 HP, 700-800cc twin, priced between 690 and 990?
Tomorrow, bring it on! 426 88.02%
Too small, prefer the exisiting 990 and upcoming 1190. 26 5.37%
Too big, prefer a single. 26 5.37%
Not interested in a KTM. 6 1.24%
Voters: 484. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-31-2012, 02:19 PM   #106
LukasM OP
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Some good points being raised! Don't have time to answer in detail right now but I think you are looking at the weight issue from the wrong side.

Take the 690 Enduro at 312 lbs wet, no fuel. You've got 60 lbs to go before you hit 370, where would you put on all that weight? Tank volume can be increased to 18 liters with no weight gain (450 rally plastic tank), how much are you counting for the twin engine, fairing (which I don't really need as I could get my own made out of lighter composites)? and beefed up components (keeping in mind that the 690 already shares forks, wheels, brakes with the SE).

I don't want a stripped down 950/990, I want a smoother, slightly more powerful and more reliable twin cylinder 690.

LukasM screwed with this post 11-01-2012 at 08:15 AM
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Old 10-31-2012, 02:33 PM   #107
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I'm also in the buy-one-tomorrow camp. This would be exactly what I would want -- with the caveat that it would have to be more reliable than the 690. And I could live with 400ish wet; but the 460 of the current middleweights is just too much.

And I'm surprised no one has jumped in to this gap yet. I really wonder if any of the manufacturers have people that really ride in this class.

Since they won't, I'll probably buy a Sertao soon. I know it's porky and has issues, but it's the closest to what I want, and I think I can manage the issues, as I have a good dealer.

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Old 10-31-2012, 02:49 PM   #108
Nowwhat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
Some good points being raised! Don't have time to answer in detail right now but I think you are looking at the weight issue from the wrong side.

Take the 690 Enduro at 312 lbs wet, no fuel. You've got 60 lbs to go before you hit 370, where would you put on all that weight? Tank volume can be increased to 18 liters with no weight gain (450 rally plastic tank), how much are you counting for the twin engine, fairing (which I don't really need as I could get my own made out of lighter composites)? and beefed up components (keeping in mind that the 690 already shares forks, wheels, brakes with the SE).

I don't want a stripped down 950/990, I want a smoother, slightly more powerful and more reliable 690.
Interesting way to look at the problem...but before we start with the 312lb number. I again ask what needs to be added to that number to make an "Enduro" an "Adventure"

The 690 needs IMO:
1) better seat
2) Better lights
3) A subframe...the 690 is already stressed with the fuel it has hanging over the wheel,,,add more weight= more cracks
4) Fairing
5) Bash plate etc

Now add the twin

1) More motor weight?...you tell me?... 20lbs?...bigger starter, gears, clutch etc etc,,,,25lbs?
2) More oil
3) More coolant
4) Bigger Radiators
5) Beefier Frame
6) Bigger Battery

In the end...I am afraid we end up 15lbs lighter than my SE with all of the excitement of a GS 800...

The best answer for most is the KTM 690 Rally Raid....with some mild work to the head and a tune...and off you go...just keep it under 65mph cuz the gear box is all wriong....
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:38 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Nowwhat View Post
Interesting way to look at the problem...but before we start with the 312lb number. I again ask what needs to be added to that number to make an "Enduro" an "Adventure"

The 690 needs IMO:
1) better seat
2) Better lights
3) A subframe...the 690 is already stressed with the fuel it has hanging over the wheel,,,add more weight= more cracks
4) Fairing
5) Bash plate etc

Now add the twin

1) More motor weight?...you tell me?... 20lbs?...bigger starter, gears, clutch etc etc,,,,25lbs?
2) More oil
3) More coolant
4) Bigger Radiators
5) Beefier Frame
6) Bigger Battery

In the end...I am afraid we end up 15lbs lighter than my SE with all of the excitement of a GS 800...

The best answer for most is the KTM 690 Rally Raid....with some mild work to the head and a tune...and off you go...just keep it under 65mph cuz the gear box is all wriong....
But I don't want a viby single to do long road sections.
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:51 PM   #110
Ceri JC
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Sounds like you folks want an F800GS?































With a bit of weight shaved off, a la the Wunderlich F800GS.
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:53 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Fishfund View Post
My little 2 cents.

I would have loved my 690 if only it ONE Didn't break down so much and TWO got better fuel mileage. I was content with everything else about the bike. If a 700-800 twin could fix those two issues for me, I would be quite happy, but I don't want anything heavier than the current 690. Being light and nimble was the best part of that bike.

I realize that MPG isn't any ones concerns but for me it is really frustrating when your riding partner on a F800GS uses 1/3 less gas. That really adds up on RTW type trips and in Norway when fuel touches $20 a gallon.

I really don't want to settle for a F800GS, but for RTW guys, fuel economy should be a consideration.
I'm in complete agreement that the 690 (or whatever it would be) has to be reliable as a stone, I would rather ride a KLR than be breaking down hundreds of miles (or thousands) from home. I do not like unreliable bikes anymore than unreliable people.

I think if KTM refines it a bit, maybe add something like rubber mounting the engine and a dual range transmission, it would be the bomb! The fuel efficiency would pick way up, get the vibes down and it's LIGHT. People are starting to talk about 400+ lb bikes now...SCREW THAT... why would you want an extra 100 lbs? Just to have it be a twin?!? Ugh.

A slightly revamped 690 with the rally kit and a rear rack is the ticket in my 'pinion.....

If I wanted to take a passenger, and all that associated gear, etc....I'd just ride my GSA.... That's what it's made for,
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:55 PM   #112
KMC1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceri JC View Post
Sounds like you folks want an F800GS?





With a bit of weight shaved off, a la the Wunderlich F800GS.
Exactly.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:09 PM   #113
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You said : "I can't believe 450 singles even made it in to this discussion- . (nevermind a DR) With oil changes & valve clearance checks measured in hours (um, starting at 1 hour!) and piston wear that is atrocious (Vertex data sheet says 18~35hrs depending on use) they don't even come close to our needs. Plus you have to spin the hell out of them to make power. In a rally/race situation these things get components thrown at them all the time and get serviced every night. That doesn't make an Adventure bike "


Sorry mate slight misunderstanding I was not talking about 450-s as options as ADV bikes just as an example that less cc doesn`t actually mean less speed or uncomfort and even with similar engine outlay and similar purpose just 200cc difference could mean 5-10% difference in weight. So I think a 15%-25% weight difference between a 600-700cc and an 1200cc bike is not unbelievable cause with the new 1200 ADV IMHO the 990 will disappear.

BTW 1 bike jurno and his mate just made the Australian APC rally on modified 450 Yamahas( first and foremost external oil tank built into the bashplate holding I think 3.5l oil) its 7000km-s in 14 days they didn`t change anything I repeat just as curiosity (more facebook trailzone magazine)

I hope for a 60-70HP 650-700cc twin under 160-170kg-s loaded with about 18-20l fuel.

I think it can be done. For example DR about 170kg-s and its engine weighs pretty much the same as an ER6 engine and there are plenty areas on a DR where you can shave weight.


BTW I`m quite happy that the discussion is a discussion and not a hairy chested dick waving contest
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:48 PM   #114
cyborg
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As for engine weights, the only ones I know first hand are:

RXV550 - 70lbs ~70hp
LC8 990 - 135lbs ~95hp

Squeezing 90hp out of a 600-700 is easy on a sportbike with the heavier/stronger engine components that spin to the moon, but would be stressing a lightweight (<100lb) twin engine the way the Aprilia 550's did (1lb/hp) so probably would not be long distance reliable/trouble-free.
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:26 PM   #115
Schannulleke
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The Highland engine was around 100lbs/45kg if I remember correct. Very high torque, enough horsepower @ low rpm.

Power:85.00 HP (62.0 kW)) @ 6000 RPM
Torque:103.00 Nm (10.5 kgf-m or 76.0 ft.lbs) @ 460 RPM





Sounds like a good candidate engine if it could have wide gear ratios and good reliability.


And as it would seem from this topic, the new 2012 690 engine could also be an excellent candidate with enough oil capacity and with the same 2 conditions as the Highland engine:
- much wider gear ratios
- better reliablity
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:35 PM   #116
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I think if it was so simple it would be done by now.
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:26 PM   #117
cyborg
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Originally Posted by Schannulleke View Post
And as it would seem from this topic, the new 2012 690 engine could also be an excellent candidate with enough oil capacity and with the same 2 conditions as the Highland engine:
- much wider gear ratios
- better reliablity
- and magically balanced to be as smooth as a twin
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:44 PM   #118
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- and magically balanced to be as smooth as a twin
stick a really really heavy flywheel on it.
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:48 PM   #119
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OK. I think the poll results and comments are pretty conclusive....so who's gonna phone KTM and tell the to get cracking on the build?
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:19 AM   #120
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Well-informed local dealer?

I don't know to what degree my local dealer is in the inner Mattighofen info loop, but they keep assuring me that a 700-800cc twin is the next shit coming. Anyone else heard any "semi-realiable rumors"?
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