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Old 09-07-2010, 06:57 AM   #151
Hondo
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So far this is what I have done to solve the surging/pinging on my 2003 R1150RT-

- jumper mod
- adjusted the valves
- removed the charcoal canister
- completed an engine sync
- changed over to Autolite spark plugs

Nothing up to this point has solved the pinging issue, but the surging is basically gone.

Yesterday I solved the pinging is one fell swoop-

I filled up with 91 octane gas that was ethanol free.

No matter what I did, I couldn't get it to ping.
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Hondo screwed with this post 10-26-2010 at 08:17 PM
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Old 09-08-2010, 07:50 AM   #152
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filled up yesterday with 91 octane, ethanol laden fuel- the pinging returned.
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Old 10-15-2010, 06:19 AM   #153
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Hi guys, i would like to ask if the pinging (sound like marble rolling in empty tin) you guys mention will only happen during hard acceleration around 4 - 5k RPM, also the bike temperature is around 5 - 6 bar.

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Andy (Singapore)
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Old 10-15-2010, 07:07 PM   #154
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In a word, yes.

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Old 10-19-2010, 09:31 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by johnjen
In a word, yes.

JJ
thanks bro
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Old 10-26-2010, 03:13 AM   #156
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1150 gs pinging

I have a 01 1150gs that used to ping even with 91 octane fuel. I double checked my throttle body sinc with a home made transmission fluid manometer and found it was way off. I stopped my pinging by throwing away my twin max. I only use regular now. I also can drop down to 2500 rpm in sixth and accelerate back up to 4000 rpm without pinging. I tried every fuel additive and spark plug available before I realized one cylinder was pulling the other. I could even see a different color on one exhaust pipe after a while. That was when it all made sense. I have 128,000 miles on her now and still no pinging.
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Old 10-26-2010, 09:11 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSBEERHUNTER
I have a 01 1150gs that used to ping even with 91 octane fuel. I double checked my throttle body sinc with a home made transmission fluid manometer and found it was way off. I stopped my pinging by throwing away my twin max. I only use regular now. I also can drop down to 2500 rpm in sixth and accelerate back up to 4000 rpm without pinging. I tried every fuel additive and spark plug available before I realized one cylinder was pulling the other. I could even see a different color on one exhaust pipe after a while. That was when it all made sense. I have 128,000 miles on her now and still no pinging.
Nice work. It is no surprise how well a properly tuned oilhead boxer can run.
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Old 06-30-2012, 06:51 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Voltar View Post
As a 1984 Electrical Engineer graduate (with honors I may add) from Texas A&M University I can, with qualifications, state that is a pretty crappy design for a relay.
As an ME, Arizona State University, likely before you were born, I can state with certainty that that is not a relay.

Therefore Voltar, your honors just went out the window and a ME has found you out.

Now, what do you suppose the contact rating is for that "relay"?
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:26 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by def View Post
As an ME, Arizona State University, likely before you were born, I can state with certainty that that is not a relay.

Therefore Voltar, your honors just went out the window and a ME has found you out.

Now, what do you suppose the contact rating is for that "relay"?
I think when he said that (several years ago) he was being sarcastic. The picture obviously showed a jumper in a case that looked like a relay. Since it was just a jumper, it's a bad design for a relay, get it?
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Old 07-03-2012, 02:14 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by nitsuj View Post

I think when he said that (several years ago) he was being sarcastic.
Heh heh. I think def was carrying the joke along as well.



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Old 11-08-2012, 03:48 AM   #161
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Steptoe jumper + PCIII USB wideband

Wanted to update the general Steptoe mod thread with something I just tried. To recap I have a 2002 R1150GS Adv, Y-pipe + stock canister, K&N. Did the jumper mod to catless map a while back with good results for thousands of miles. However this summer while on a long ride, got some pinging again. Conditions were very hot, slow, stuck behind a truck for miles coming into Lizard Head pass south of Telluride (maybe 10-11k ft elevation). Needed to get on it to pass and got the worst pinging ever, felt like it was going to stall. Thought maybe it was gas, later filled the tank and got some more under similar conditions a few days later.

We were riding with a Canadian fellow, and using hand signals and crude pantomime he was able to communicate that he used a Dynojet PCIII wideband to good results on his GSA back home (Hi Ian). So I kept that in mind and waited for one to show up on fBAy or Adv flea market. One did and I got it.

There are only 2 maps available for the R1150GS. Stock and modded (for hot cams + porting + exhaust, not sure where they got this stuff). The stock map however is richer in places plus the wideband in the closed loop section takes it to 13.8 AFR, richer than stock. What I did was select the stock map, but kept the Steptoe jumper mod in place. So what the system is doing is taking the base jumper catless motronic map and running it a bit (or a lot) richer in places, but then in the closed loop section slightly richer with much better closed loop control from the wideband.

Holy cow what a difference! Smoothness, power, TQ down low, etc. Just blew me away, like a completely different bike. Was not able to replicate ambient conditions for prior pinging but the change is obvious. Pretty clear even the catless jumper map was running a bit (or a lot) lean. All part throttle surging @ 3-4k RPM (which was getting annoying) just gone. Even the sound was different, more like liquid/fluid pump running instead of agricultural metallic.

One thing that may have happened I don't know enough about how the motronic works though. I understand adaptation takes place and it may be over time it adapted away from the initial richer settings. The PCIII takes over the O2 sensor completely, the new wideband sensor output plugs directly into the PCIII and does not even talk to the motronic. On other bikes I have recently found out that earlier PCIII's where they recommended you run in open loop (disconnect O2 sensor completely) when doing that the ECU defaults to a mid-lean map. So now the procedure is to use a cat eliminator/simulator to fool the ecu into thinking a sensor is connected, and defaults to the true base open loop map (richer).

Anyway the PCIII USB with wideband sensor has a plug for the old O2 sensor harness and I suspect it does this to defeat a default motronic adaption to no sensor. So perhaps the PCIII now sits on the base non-adapted jumper map, richens this up here and there, and runs a tight closed loop to 13.8 AFR in the closed loop section. Lots of room to adjust here, too.

I can post up a pic/screenshot of the Dynojet software map if anyone is interested. Comments welcome, the above is some conjecture as to how the whole system works. Best part of this is I got the PCIII + wideband sensor for $150 shipped from a member here.
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:00 AM   #162
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As I understand the workings of the EFI, 02 Sensors & the bikes computer - the computer takes its readings from air sensor, throttle body sensor, engine temp etc. first until the bike runs and warms up then it takes the readings from the 02 sensors once the bike is off the enrichening at start up. The computer does learn to the extent that if you unhook the battery it will loose the previous running info as to how much fuel the injectors should add etc. Hook the battery back up and take the bike for a ride and it will relearn this info from the 02 Sensor.

The 02 sensors convert their reading into voltage and then the computer takes this voltage reading, compares it to a table stored in the computer's memory and then adds the applicable amount of fuel to the engine. As you drive it is always updating the reading from the 02 sensor and adjusting the amount of fuel to keep the AF mixture at the factory spec, probably in the range of 14.2-14.7 to 1.

The trick with EFI systems that use 02 Sensors, both types of sensors, is to fool them into adding more fuel so that the mixture is more in the range of 12.5-13.8 which is much better for performance and cooling purposes in the engine. There are many ways to do this.

I know this is a Harley paragraph and you may not want to read it but both manufactures use 02 Sensors, EFI & computers - so tuning info is similar for both. I don't know if the outfit that makes XIED's ( you use them between the 02 Sensor and computer on a EFI Harley - Harley's use closed loop 02 Sensors ) makes any for BMW's but that is one way to accomplish what you are doing but simpler. The XIED is basically a resistor that is plugged in between the 02 Sensor & the computer. The XIED site has a lot of info about EFI/Computer systems in general that is a good read to understand how this stuff works. I run the XIED's on my Harley and they make a subtle but noticeable difference in roll on acceleration, engine heat & overall drive ability. Add in Iridium spark plugs and the engine really comes to life. I know it doesn't make sense but the two work very well together.

When I had my R1100R they were noted for surging etc. so lots went the Booster Plug way, which basically moved the air temp sensor out of the breather box and into the air stream. The end result was that the computer sensed the cooler air so it added more fuel. I actually picked up a spare sensor for an R1100R and did some experimenting at home. Placed the sensor in the fridge and then out in room air and then heated it slightly. Using an ohm meter you could see the resistance change depending on the temp that the sensor was receiving. It was an interesting experiment and it showed how subtle changes in temp affected the resistance level, which in turn affected the voltage that the computer was receiving, and in turn affected how much fuel the EFI system delivered to the engine.

This in a nutshell is how all of the add on's work, they trick the computer into adding more fuel.
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:12 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
Wanted to update the general ... he was able to communicate that he used a Dynojet PCIII wideband to good results on his GSA back home (Hi Ian). So I kept that in mind and waited for one to show up on fBAy or Adv flea market. One did and I got it.

There are only 2 maps available for the R1150GS. Stock and modded (for hot cams + porting + exhaust, not sure where they got this stuff). The stock map however is richer in places plus the wideband in the closed loop section takes it to 13.8 AFR, richer than stock. What I did was select the stock map, but kept the Steptoe jumper mod in place. So what the system is doing is taking the base jumper catless motronic map and running it a bit (or a lot) richer in places, but then in the closed loop section slightly richer with much better closed loop control from the wideband.

Holy cow what a difference! Smoothness, power, TQ down low, etc. Just blew me away, like a completely different bike. Was not able to replicate ambient conditions for prior pinging but the change is obvious. Pretty clear even the catless jumper map was running a bit (or a lot) lean. All part throttle surging @ 3-4k RPM (which was getting annoying) just gone. Even the sound was different, more like liquid/fluid pump running instead of agricultural metallic.
Thanks adding this. Isn't it tremendous how well the R1150 runs and how strong it is when you give it 5-6% more fuel?

Until you ride a bike with the richer mixture, it's hard to believe just how much stronger the R1150s run, especially between 2000 and 3500 RPM. The PC III is a good way to achieve that goal. It has a wideband O2 and it has Closed Loop. Surging, pinging, bogging down--all things of the past. It even sounds better, although I don't know why.

Another way to accomplish the same thing at about 1/3 the cost is to replace the narrowband O2 sensor with a Wideband O2. The approach I took is in this long thread (Motronic with Wideband O2. I've tried mixtures from 2% richer to about 10% richer. I've also tried 6% leaner. Just like every gasoline motor I've owned, there's a sweet spot. The boxer seems to love 13.8 to 13.5:1. I also boosted the fuel pressure but that's optional, it just help the Motronic adapt to the richer mixture faster, by having the effect of making the stock Open Loop table produce a richer fueling. I've got several thousand miles on the bike now and it has worked perfectly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
One thing that may have happened I don't know enough about how the motronic works though. I understand adaptation takes place and it may be over time it adapted away from the initial richer settings. The PCIII takes over the O2 sensor completely, the new wideband sensor output plugs directly into the PCIII and does not even talk to the motronic. On other bikes I have recently found out that earlier PCIII's where they recommended you run in open loop (disconnect O2 sensor completely) when doing that the ECU defaults to a mid-lean map. So now the procedure is to use a cat eliminator/simulator to fool the ecu into thinking a sensor is connected, and defaults to the true base open loop map (richer).

Anyway the PCIII USB with wideband sensor has a plug for the old O2 sensor harness and I suspect it does this to defeat a default motronic adaption to no sensor. So perhaps the PCIII now sits on the base non-adapted jumper map, richens this up here and there, and runs a tight closed loop to 13.8 AFR in the closed loop section. Lots of room to adjust here, too.
Have a look at the charts below, they're a pretty good representation of how the Motronic works with Wideband O2 and with the PC III. Many changes made to the Motronic MA 2.4 on the R1150s do get Adapted out. Since the PC III runs Motronic Open Loop its Wideband Closed Loop and other changes don't get adapted out. The plug is just to keep it from throwing an error code.

The beauty of the PC III is that it's Plug 'n Play. The beauty of the Wideband O2 is that it is well integrated with the normal Motronic function. Both get you to richer mixtures.




roger 04 rt screwed with this post 11-08-2012 at 02:29 PM
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:27 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cycleman2 View Post
As I understand the workings of the EFI, 02 Sensors & the bikes computer - the computer takes its readings from air sensor, throttle body sensor, engine temp etc. first until the bike runs and warms up then it takes the readings from the 02 sensors once the bike is off the enrichening at start up. The computer does learn to the extent that if you unhook the battery it will loose the previous running info as to how much fuel the injectors should add etc. Hook the battery back up and take the bike for a ride and it will relearn this info from the 02 Sensor.

The 02 sensors convert their reading into voltage and then the computer takes this voltage reading, compares it to a table stored in the computer's memory and then adds the applicable amount of fuel to the engine. As you drive it is always updating the reading from the 02 sensor and adjusting the amount of fuel to keep the AF mixture at the factory spec, probably in the range of 14.2-14.7 to 1.
Yup that's about right. If you look at the block diagram above, it compares the amount of fuel the O2 sensor says you need to hit 14.7 with the amount the Fuel Table says you need to hit 14.7 and then creates an adjustment or Adaptation Value. They get learned by the Motronic for a range of RPMs and Throttle Positions. It takes a while of riding with a steady throttle hand and various RPM, TPS combinations to get it to adjust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cycleman2 View Post
The trick with EFI systems that use 02 Sensors, both types of sensors, is to fool them into adding more fuel so that the mixture is more in the range of 12.5-13.8 which is much better for performance and cooling purposes in the engine. There are many ways to do this.

I know this is a Harley paragraph and you may not want to read it but both manufactures use 02 Sensors, EFI & computers - so tuning info is similar for both. I don't know if the outfit that makes XIED's ( you use them between the 02 Sensor and computer on a EFI Harley - Harley's use closed loop 02 Sensors ) makes any for BMW's but that is one way to accomplish what you are doing but simpler. The XIED is basically a resistor that is plugged in between the 02 Sensor & the computer. The XIED site has a lot of info about EFI/Computer systems in general that is a good read to understand how this stuff works. I run the XIED's on my Harley and they make a subtle but noticeable difference in roll on acceleration, engine heat & overall drive ability. Add in Iridium spark plugs and the engine really comes to life. I know it doesn't make sense but the two work very well together.

...
I know the inventor of the XIED for harleys. He has a range of really good devices but they don't work on BMWs with Motronic. The basic idea is to shift the switching point of the O2 sensor, something that I've done, and he's done too, with the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 Wideband O2 sensor. The LC-1 works on BMWs and Harleys but is about twice as much as his dedicated XIED at nightrider.com.

The idea of adding a different O2 sensor isn't so much to fool the Motronic (like that old commercial, "you can't fool mother nature"), the Motronic drives the fueling to line up with the switching point of the O2 sensor. The stock, Narrowband O2, switches at 14.7:1, a relatively lean mixture. By adding an LC-1 and programing its switching point, you're directing the Motronic to align to the mixture you've selected. I'm running 13.8:1 and the bike loves it just like the previous poster mentioned.

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Old 11-08-2012, 04:00 PM   #165
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Roger,
Thanks for your response and the cool diagrams.

So if I get what you are saying the PCIII does in fact turn off all motronic adaptation, is that correct? That was my initial interpretation/conjecture based on the install wiring and some understanding of PCIII operation on other bikes. It also has a resistor across the old O2 sensor plug acting as a cat eliminator forcing base un-adapted open loop operation of the motronic. As I said above other bikes when you do not do that and run a non-wideband PCIII (which means disconnect the O2 sensor) it will default not to the assumed base map in the PCIII but a mid lean map (and throw a code sometimes), adapting away from the programmed table to do so. Dynojet either did not know this five years ago or did not say it, even in the models they advised disconnecting the O2 sensor for. Only recently have I found that you need to run a plug to ensure true open loop operation at the programmed PCIII values (in my case on a FJR1300 and a Roadliner).

edit: my understanding is when no O2 senor is detected, the native OEM ECU (motronic in BMW case) defaults to an open loop map, but not THE base open loop map that the PCIII deltas assume is in place. It is a leaner one. So that the PCIII fuel tables + open loop will be off, as they assume true base map. This is for older non-wideband models.

The additional advantage to me of the PCIII + wideband on the GS is the programmable base map it has, which is a 18 x 9, 2d array of +/- tweaks to fueling (rpm vs tps). Unless I do not understand the diagrams, that cannot be done by just adding a wideband sensor. The other thing that can be done is dial the AFR you want closed loop mode to target, via the nice software interface. Comes set at 13.8 but that is easy to tweak.

As far as cost, the price used of the PCIII with wideband sensor was barely more than a new wideband sensor. New they are 500 or so, but they are no longer in production, or at least superceded by the PCV. I do not even know if they have one for the GS yet. Anyway what counts is how it runs, and it has never run like this.

The other thing I kind of liked was running "stock" PCIII map on top of the Steptoe mod for catless. The catless map option in the PCIII assumed a bunch of other hi-po mods I do not have.

Here is the map, this sits on top of the Steptoe jumpered catless (base unadapted open loop version), gray area is closed loop...


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