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Old 11-09-2012, 04:29 PM   #181
cycleman2
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It doesn't surprise me that the PC III connects something to the 02 Sensor. Once the engine is at operating temp, that is the sensor where the PCM gets its main signal with lesser inputs from the throttle position sensor as to amount of fuel to add.

If you are going to take the 02 Sensors out of the mix then you'll have to provide an artificial voltage reading to the PCM when it is in closed loop mode, which is just about everything up to 3/4 throttle.
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Old 11-09-2012, 04:40 PM   #182
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It doesn't surprise me that the PC III connects something to the 02 Sensor. Once the engine is at operating temp, that is the sensor where the PCM gets its main signal with lesser inputs from the throttle position sensor as to amount of fuel to add.

If you are going to take the 02 Sensors out of the mix then you'll have to provide an artificial voltage reading to the PCM when it is in closed loop mode, which is just about everything up to 3/4 throttle.
Well it surprised the Dynojet people because for years they just recommended disconnecting the O2 sensor on older PCIII USB models to run properly "open loop". Low and behold after getting the wideband PCIII for the GS I was reading up trying to figure out what the harness connection into the OEM O2 socket was doing. I kept seeing the O2 simulators now being recommended for older PCIII to eliminate left over adaptation due to deafault mode for no O2 sensor detected.

To be clear the old O2 sensor is thrown away on the wideband. The new sensor plugs into its own harness that goes directly into the PCIII. There is another branch off the PCIII harness that plugs into the empty OEM O2 socket off the main OEM wiring harness to the motronic. What exactly that does is the question. The O2 simulators I mention above for older non wideband PCIII's also plug into the empty O2 sensor socket in the main harness. It looks mainly like a resistor. It does not plug into the PCIII harness, so maybe something more than just a resistor is going on with the connection to the PCIII wideband on the GS; ie it is being used as an input to the piggyback or to the motronic somehow.

fred flintstone screwed with this post 11-09-2012 at 04:50 PM
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:16 PM   #183
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It would make sense for the PCIII to feed a constant voltage to the O2 sensor port on the Ecu so that the Ecu doesn't try to adapt or throw a code. Then the PCIII could control the mixture because the ECU would be blind to the changes being made. The Ecu would think everything was fine and stick to the stock map, which is consistent with my experience of it not fighting the PCIII.

Originally the PCIII kit came from one of the BMW dealers (Santa Fe BMW?) and you just disconnected the O2 sensor and it always ran open loop. One of those kits came up on FM and I called the dealer and spoke to the guy who developed it. He said that they stopped producing it when DynoJet came out with a closed loop kit.

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Old 11-10-2012, 07:09 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
...

To be clear the old O2 sensor is thrown away on the wideband. The new sensor plugs into its own harness that goes directly into the PCIII. There is another branch off the PCIII harness that plugs into the empty OEM O2 socket off the main OEM wiring harness to the motronic. What exactly that does is the question. ....
That is the question. Powercommander makes a product called Wideband Commander which i would guess uses the same technology--but it's only a guess. (Dobeck, maker of Techlusion, has a Wideband option on its latest product, not available for our bikes. They announced a deal with Innovate: Dobeck and Innovate.)

Since the PC III has a cable to the Motronic O2 input, and since the SW shows a closed loop area, I'm now starting to reconsider the way it functions with Motronic. It may be that, like the innovate LC-1, it lets the Motronic run a Closed Loop program part of the time. That part time is likely to be in the shaded area below. That being the case, the Motronic would then have what it needed to calculate Adaptation Values in the areas where the PC allowed Closed Loop.

If this all sounds a little confusing it is. On the one hand, the PC can only add Open Loop fuel when the Motronic isn't Closed Loop. On the other hand, as much as I've measured the Motronic for my LC-1 install, I can't say precisely how the Motronic's Adaptation Values would interact with the PC. Given the Wideband Commander technology and the difficulty of designing a Closed Loop software program it makes some sense that the PC would let the Motronic perform CL. I'll look into this some more.

In the meantime here is an article that compares Innovate and Wideband Commander: WIDEBAND SHOOTOUT
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Old 11-10-2012, 09:45 AM   #185
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Guys, Just sent a detailed email to Dynojet, waiting to hear back. Will post results. Can any of you tell me how many wires are in the cable going from the PC III to the Motronic O2 sensor input. It is most likely one wire but may be two. RB
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:02 AM   #186
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Guys, Just sent a detailed email to Dynojet, waiting to hear back. Will post results. Can any of you tell me how many wires are in the cable going from the PC III to the Motronic O2 sensor input. It is most likely one wire but may be two. RB
Hi roger,
I think you'd have to pull the tank off to do that, and it is below zero deg F here in my non heated garage plus I just filled up the tank after confirming everything worked on this mod. Then this winter storm moved in. I'll at least remove the seat later today and look at it.

AJ
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:16 AM   #187
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That is the question. Powercommander makes a product called Wideband Commander which i would guess uses the same technology--but it's only a guess. (Dobeck, maker of Techlusion, has a Wideband option on its latest product, not available for our bikes. They announced a deal with Innovate: Dobeck and Innovate.)

Since the PC III has a cable to the Motronic O2 input, and since the SW shows a closed loop area, I'm now starting to reconsider the way it functions with Motronic. It may be that, like the innovate LC-1, it lets the Motronic run a Closed Loop program part of the time. That part time is likely to be in the shaded area below. That being the case, the Motronic would then have what it needed to calculate Adaptation Values in the areas where the PC allowed Closed Loop.

If this all sounds a little confusing it is. On the one hand, the PC can only add Open Loop fuel when the Motronic isn't Closed Loop. On the other hand, as much as I've measured the Motronic for my LC-1 install, I can't say precisely how the Motronic's Adaptation Values would interact with the PC. Given the Wideband Commander technology and the difficulty of designing a Closed Loop software program it makes some sense that the PC would let the Motronic perform CL. I'll look into this some more.

In the meantime here is an article that compares Innovate and Wideband Commander: WIDEBAND SHOOTOUT
Just to get even more confusing, the unit that I have and I think Canoehead (Ian) has are not Wideband Commanders as shown in the above article, they are called "PCIII USB including Wideband Sensor". It is the exact model 919-611 that is pictured in the PDF sheet here:

http://www.powercommander.com/downlo...eng919-611.pdf
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:24 AM   #188
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Just to get even more confusing, the unit that I have and I think Canoehead (Ian) has are not Wideband Commanders as shown in the above article, they are called "PCIII USB including Wideband Sensor". It is the exact model 919-611 that is pictured in the PDF sheet here:

http://www.powercommander.com/downlo...eng919-611.pdf
Yup. Understood that. Waiting on some feed back from PC for 919-611 (R1150GS) and 918-611 (R1150RT). It's likely the technology and circuitry for the Wideband Commander and the Powercommander III USB are similar if not the same. But will know more in a day or two.

Can you take a look and see how many wires are in the cable that goes to the Motronic O2 input? Wondering if it is 1 or 2.

One of the things I discovered during my LC-1 project is that the Motronic input is two wire, offset by 140 mV but that it can be driven by a single wire if the voltages are offset.
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Old 11-11-2012, 04:36 PM   #189
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It is cold and snowy here as well and the mighty GSA is tucked away, waiting for some Chinook winds but IIRC, there are two wires. The reason I remember it this way is that the plug from the motronic has 4 pins and I puzzled over why there are only two coming from the PCIII. Then I realized that two of the pins are for the O2 heater circuit which the PCIII doesn't use. I actually thought about rigging up a circuit to power the sensor heater.

Fred is right, I have the same model as he does.

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Old 11-12-2012, 08:10 AM   #190
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It is cold and snowy here as well and the mighty GSA is tucked away, waiting for some Chinook winds but IIRC, there are two wires. The reason I remember it this way is that the plug from the motronic has 4 pins and I puzzled over why there are only two coming from the PCIII. Then I realized that two of the pins are for the O2 heater circuit which the PCIII doesn't use. I actually thought about rigging up a circuit to power the sensor heater.

Fred is right, I have the same model as he does.

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No need to power the heater circuit on an 1150. I've tried it with and without a load resistor to simulate the heater. There is no error code if you leave the heater off--and nothing getting really hot! (On some motorcycles and cars you do have to provide a load to the O2 heater circuit, but not on the 1150.)
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:33 PM   #191
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I was thinking more about getting the sensor online faster, particularly in cold weather.

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Old 11-12-2012, 02:42 PM   #192
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I was thinking more about getting the sensor online faster, particularly in cold weather.

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The Wideband sensor that comes with my LC-1 and your PC III USB includes a very fast heater circuit, less than a minute. The cable to Bosch LSU 4.2 Sensor that they all seem to use is 5-wire harness that includes a heater circuit run by the LC/PC.

Because the sensor is so fast, I've notice that the Closed Loop swings are about half as small as the narrowband, meaning you get tighter afr control. As far as I see $170 for an LC-1 is about the best performance money you can spend. And even though the PC III IS more, it's money we'll spent too--I'll post a table soon that would preclude dyno tuning for most. I just need some details from Dynojet.

RB
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:10 PM   #193
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The PCIII doesn't heat the sensor at all. Those pins are missing on both sides of the PCIII. It would have been easy to pass the circuit from the ECU to the new O2 sensor but they didn't bother. :

I have an LC-1 sitting on the shelf that I bought for use on my Lightning engined Expedition. I bought an extra bung and plug for my Mazdaspeed but I never thought to try it on the bike!

Al and I are kindred spirits when it comes to bike and car mods.

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Old 11-12-2012, 07:46 PM   #194
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The PCIII doesn't heat the sensor at all. Those pins are missing on both sides of the PCIII. It would have been easy to pass the circuit from the ECU to the new O2 sensor but they didn't bother. :

I have an LC-1 sitting on the shelf that I bought for use on my Lightning engined Expedition. I bought an extra bung and plug for my Mazdaspeed but I never thought to try it on the bike!

Al and I are kindred spirits when it comes to bike and car mods.

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That doesn't make sense to me because a Bosch LSU 4.2 won't work if not heated. The PC III doesn't use the Motronic heater circuit, it has one from the PC III.

You should weld a second bung on the 1150 exhaust. Then you could log data and really see what's happening. You really have a lot of toys.
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:51 AM   #195
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Al and I are kindred spirits when it comes to bike and car mods.
If only we could use our powers for good instead of evil.

Speaking of which all this great discussion of wideband sensors talking to motronics has me wondering the following:

If the steptoe jumper mod for catless really is for no cat, then all the voltage oscillation to keep a cat happy should be missing, yes? And then I was wondering what purpose adaptation of any kind would have on an OEM catless map and if there were one would it differ from a catted adaptation. Maybe just for e10 vs no e. It sure would be nice to have a way to read the full motrocinc map(s) as opposed to guessing.

Very curious to hear what the dynojet folks come back with on all this. I'd be very surprised to hear all the motronic adaptation is somehow left on. Pretty sure that all the closed loop happens inside the PCIII, if not getting an adaptive loop inside the motronic to work under those cicumstances would be challenging. And getting different fuel tables working in the PCIII with closed loop + adaptation happening inside the motronic would be even more difficult.

Since this is in the GS section I wonder if any other 1150 engine BMW folks are running the PCIII wideband and have info. Searching the web I did not find much talk. I think now that used prices of these PCIII's have gotten to the point that they are cheaper than LC1 or comparable to booster plugs and similar, maybe some more folks should look into them. It was literally plug and play for me, 1 hr job tops including tank & exhaust removal/reinstall for an amazing improvement with substantial open ended future tuning capability.

Ian I can't remember if you are running a Y-pipe or not.
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