ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Some Assembly Required
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-09-2012, 04:03 PM   #16
LukasM
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: On a RTW ride - currently Central Asia
Oddometer: 5,333
KTM parts interchangeability... I should have written my master thesis on that shit instead of renewable energy like I'm doing right now!!!

- Most KTM offroad(ish) bikes use 190mm width triples, this goes from 125-990 Adv. BUT it also includes 450-560 SMR bikes with radial caliper mount.

- KTMs street-ish bikes like LC4 Supermotos, both the old 640 version with the axial gold 4 piston Brembo, and the newer 690 SMC/Duke/SM, use 210mm width clamps. This also includes 950/990 Super Dukes and Supermoto.

- Next you have to be careful with offsets, because generally all offroad-ish bikes have leading axle forks and therefore less offset in the triples (generally 18-24mm, only SMR 14-16mm) but more offset in total, while the street-ish bikes have more higher offset triples (around 35mm) but less in total due to the in-line axle. The exception is the 640 LC4 SM, it has wide triples with 18mm offset and a leading axle.


I have no idea what offset would work well for you Pete, but if turning radius is a concern with a 48mm WP conversion on the Ninja frame, then it might actually not be a bad idea to put on a 690 SMC triple clamp and radial fork combo. This gives you the wider spacing and the most triple offset but less total (35mm IIRC). The disc gets spaced out with the factory 8mm spacer, so it should be possible to get enough clearance to the spokes of a 21" wheel with a radial caliper and a 320mm disc (just not the Brembo I think).

Edit: you can still swap around wheels with the wider triples, they all use the same hub width. On the right the extra space gets taken up by a wider thick part on the axle, and on the left you simply change the left spacer.

Hope that was clear as mud...
__________________
RTW trip blog: https://www.facebook.com/AroundTheWorldWithLukasM

LukasM screwed with this post 11-09-2012 at 04:10 PM
LukasM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 05:58 PM   #17
DRjoe
Beastly Adventurer
 
DRjoe's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Sunshine coast qld
Oddometer: 4,826
I feel your pain with the complexity of welding the rear tank.

The one I made for my 520exc ended up being a welding marathon.
I combined the air box, battery box, subframe and fuel tank together as on structure all made of 3mm 5083 plate with a bit extra round the mounts to spread the load.

Surprisingly it transformed the handing on the bike, made it much more stable through corners.
I thought it was just because it wasn't flexing like the stock subframe but I'm starting to think its not just because the seat isn't moving but I reckon it's stiffening the main frame as well.
I could be wrong and usually I am.


I thought it would be so simple at the start.



Then it got more and more complicated. I wish I had never tried to incorporate the guard like I did.






This is the only shot of the air box cover that I'm particularly proud of. It took 10hrs to make and works and fits perfectly.


Its been finished and in use for several years now, its survived several failed hill climbs and various other riding errors.

DRjoe screwed with this post 11-10-2012 at 01:41 PM
DRjoe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 05:59 PM   #18
sanjoh
Purveyor of Light
 
sanjoh's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Mountains of Central Florida:)
Oddometer: 4,553
I have the 43mm wp's on the Dirt Ninja and would not consider going to a larger diameter fork due to the limitation of steering. I've been able to amke it work but it's kinda strange having to lean the bike and hang off when you are in tight single track to get it to turn, all the time with the fork against the frame.

I think there is a 640 duke being parted in the flea market iirc, I would jump all over those triples.

Parts fiche is your friend
sanjoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2012, 05:31 AM   #19
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRjoe View Post
I feel your pain with the complexity of welding the rear tank.
Nice job on that rear tank. I found my biggest problem doing the rear tank is I just jumped into it and didn't really think it through, especially the rear cowling where the lights would be. So I had to end up butchering the whole thing up.

On this build I will be much more careful about laying it out. Also need to be careful about how the fuel travels in the tank and if I created any dead spots like my first tank.

I want to get a factory rear end complete with lights, blinkers, license plate holder in hand before I start this tank so I can make sure it will just bolt on. Any suggestions?

Also probably going to make another seat, my Fz1 seat is really comfy and I have plenty of black suede left.

Sanjoh, Totally understand your point now. My Fz1 suffers from that. I just live with it. I really can't step down to the 43 because my wheels won't swap well I guess I could machine spacers, but I already have the forks, wheels and triples. I'll mock it up, I imagine I will quickly see the issue you are having. I could always cut scallops out of the frame and brace it back up.

Wish me luck on getting the bike, Tuesday 12PM High Noon baby
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2012, 01:40 PM   #20
DRjoe
Beastly Adventurer
 
DRjoe's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Sunshine coast qld
Oddometer: 4,826
There are plenty of aftermarket rear lights with a number plate bracket out there or the ones that come on the ktm exc range are good and are a lot more substantial than the aftermarket ones.
DRjoe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 09:46 AM   #21
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,275
scored the bike!!! 2007 Ninja 650 with 12k on it for $560. Woot!! Time to start the real building now. It was obviously in a serious wreck, the forks are snapped off at the lower triple, header is smashed and the radiator is most likely knackered. Oh and the tank is seriously dented. But all those parts are things I would most likely replace anyways with custom parts. I inspected the bike personally and I didn't see too much wrong, no obvious frame damage, steering stem looks intact. Really excited to get this build going this winter.



I bought it from Copart auction which is like a salvage auction site. In PA you don't need a dealer license and sign up was simple. Since it was a local auction in Pittsburgh, I can drive over and pick it up. My final bid was $375, all the fees added up to $560 but still I think it's a fair price for a bike that I can probably recoup a little on by selling the stock parts for a few bucks. Maybe.
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 04:45 PM   #22
ktmklx
Studly Adventurer
 
ktmklx's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Oddometer: 671
Good job on the score! BTW the red Ninjas are the fastest ones.
ktmklx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 05:12 PM   #23
LukasM
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: On a RTW ride - currently Central Asia
Oddometer: 5,333
Great deal for sure, when you are done selling the left-over parts you will be money ahead!
__________________
RTW trip blog: https://www.facebook.com/AroundTheWorldWithLukasM
LukasM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 06:11 PM   #24
sanjoh
Purveyor of Light
 
sanjoh's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Mountains of Central Florida:)
Oddometer: 4,553
Dang, even came with a plate
sanjoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 06:13 PM   #25
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
Great deal for sure, when you are done selling the left-over parts you will be money ahead!
I seriously doubt that Every time I try and part a bike out I spend more time and energy going to the post office and dealing with idiots on ebay. Last year I (stupidly) bought a kx500. I realized I would never use it so I sold the whole thing on ebay. I sold the piston and cylinder to the top bidder for $0.99 each. The shipping to FINLAND was $43, which I charged him. By the time I ate the paypal fees and listing fees I should have thrown them in the trash. Oh and then he disputed the shipping and I ate that too.

For something like this bike, I'd just as soon give the parts away than try and make money on them, not worth the hassle. Hell I still have wheels off the FZ1, swingarms etc. I'm trying to emulate you Lukas you part-hordin' mofo!!

Got a rear KTM brake setup BTW? My local buddy here who I bought the forks off of has an 05 swingarm so I'm just going to take that. But I feel like I need to eventually buy something from you so we can make this an international build.

BTW, I also am (hopefully) soon to be a 33% owner in a Aprilia Futura in Milan and you're the first person I am coming to see so look out
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 06:16 PM   #26
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,275
This is the best pic though



Motor looks clean



And to think I paid $1000 for the stolen bike 3 years ago. Still can't believe I did that, and drove to NYC, and the NYC police were like "We really don't care unless someone died" when I explained to them with detailed emails with address, payment info etc.
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 09:50 PM   #27
Roadracer_Al
louder, louder, louder!
 
Roadracer_Al's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Oakland, CA
Oddometer: 1,425
Yeah, F'in' police. You can't get them to bust a verified bike thief, but damn, they care, a LOT when you wheelie past them on the freeway, though.

I did a lot of thinking on the matter when I was considering my own dirt Ninja. I came to the conclusion that I would need to extend the frame in order to move the steering head forward quite a bit to keep the front wheel from hitting the radiator.

A word to the wise: if they hit hard enough to snap off the RSU fork legs (i.e. thick steel tubes), then there was a metric shitload (that's a technical term, don'tcha know...) of energy put into that frame -- I'd all but guarantee it's bent somewhere, and probably bent a lot. I'd suggest that you loosen the motor mount bolts and see if you can slide them -- don't take them out because the frame might go SPROING and you'll never get it back together... but it's a good test. Look for cracked/flaking paint.

Also, check to see if the steering head bearing cups are ovalized from the impact. I did a job years ago for a guy that hit a curb and ovalized his steering head. I turned new cups, cut off the old ones, and welded them in place. Worked great.

If you find it is bent, then it might actually be easier to either build a new frame from scratch or buy a straight used one... but you're just going to hack it up. Like me, you love your tubing bender - doing a whole frame from scratch ought to be good clean FUN.
__________________
------------------------------
Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow
------------------------------
New Rider Training in the San Francisco Bay Area at Motorcycle University". Learn to Ride...Better!
Roadracer_Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 04:34 AM   #28
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadracer_Al View Post
Yeah, F'in' police. You can't get them to bust a verified bike thief, but damn, they care, a LOT when you wheelie past them on the freeway, though.
Easy money, and that's what it's all about. Investigating a crime, well that sounds like a lot of effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadracer_Al View Post

A word to the wise: if they hit hard enough to snap off the RSU fork legs (i.e. thick steel tubes), then there was a metric shitload (that's a technical term, don'tcha know...) of energy put into that frame -- I'd all but guarantee it's bent somewhere, and probably bent a lot. I'd suggest that you loosen the motor mount bolts and see if you can slide them -- don't take them out because the frame might go SPROING and you'll never get it back together... but it's a good test. Look for cracked/flaking paint.

Also, check to see if the steering head bearing cups are ovalized from the impact. I did a job years ago for a guy that hit a curb and ovalized his steering head. I turned new cups, cut off the old ones, and welded them in place. Worked great.

If you find it is bent, then it might actually be easier to either build a new frame from scratch or buy a straight used one... but you're just going to hack it up. Like me, you love your tubing bender - doing a whole frame from scratch ought to be good clean FUN.
Al I hope you are wrong. I am really not interested in a custom frame at this point although I might just have to do that. I sounds like others have had issues with the fork legs limiting the steering arc. Cutting the head tube and stretching it would solve the problem but now you have an issue, if using the stock tank, of being in an uncomfortable riding position. Course you can solve this by scrapping the tank and moving the seat forward.

I've done two of these builds now so I am aware of the numerous pitfalls that can mire a project down and cause it to go dormant because of the enormity of a problem. I don't want that to happen this time, so I am going to attempt to keep things as stock as possible where it matters. Your point about the frame being bent is a good one and something I haven't overlooked. It's just hard to see based on the limited viewing angle I had in person.

I think the front wheel hitting the rad is an easier problem to solve. I could run split rads like a dirt bike, relocate the rad under the seat but now I am not going to be running a subframe tank. I have some offset triples that should get me a little more real estate. Honestly I had another look at the frame and it's actually a pretty nicely designed frame. I'm not sure I'm comfortable redesigning it without some engineering. Assuming the frame is tweaked in a couple places, I think that can be dealt with in situ. As long as the weld integrity is fine I'm cool with it. I have my welding handiwork holding my fat ass safely in the air in other places.

I never knew that other guys had issues with the front wheel and the radiator. Maybe they aren't running a 21" front? JDRocks, what's the verdict on this
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 06:32 AM   #29
jdrocks
Gravel Runner
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Oddometer: 3,888
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailah View Post

I never knew that other guys had issues with the front wheel and the radiator. Maybe they aren't running a 21" front? JDRocks, what's the verdict on this
i'm running a 19" front, but it's close to the inflated diameter of the 21", no interference problems when using the DRZ400S forks in the OEM Versys clamps, and that includes clearance to the radiator guard which is mounted about 15mm in front of the core. almost 12" of travel on the DRZs, and even using all 12, nothing touches.

ktmklx is running a 21 with long travel USDs, the OEM radiator with his shop built guard, and i don't recall him reporting an interference issue.

with all the nuances of fork length, diameter, offsets, steering stops, clamps, and clearance issues around the steering head area, the selection of the swap in parts for the front suspension seems to be the key to the viability of these builds.

the wheelbase on my particular bike seems to be longer than some of the other numbers i've seen reported, but the handling is spot on, both gravel and pavement, with plenty of miles on both.

these builds are sort of old news after three years. that said, i'm more convinced than ever that a custom build based on this ptwin platform is still the biggest bang for the buck available in the moto world using any reasonable cost/performance metric. it does help to be USA based, where all required used parts are dirt cheap.

properly designed and built, these inexpensive ptwin motos will outrun a whole bunch of "DS" bikes found on the showroom floor.

i do have a like new radiator/fan for sale if yours is trashed. also an ER6 tank.

you do need to check that frame, but it's not difficult once you get everything out of the way.

jdrocks screwed with this post 11-14-2012 at 07:51 AM
jdrocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 07:18 AM   #30
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,275
Thanks jd. I didn't have any clearance issues with the cbr and that rad and header combo was tough to get around. My gut tells me it will be fine. Steering lock is another issue I'll tackle when I get to it.

I think you are right with bang for the buck. These bikes have everything you need as a base other than suspension. I'm going to attempt to add to the knowledge on this project by fitting a longer ktm swingarm. I had an idea to try and come up with a custom top shock mount that keys off the stock shock mount on the frame. Assuming there is enough room for the ktm shock, I could loan out the jig which would locate the shock mount and users could then weld theirs in and send it to the next guy. I could also machine up the swingarm spacers.

I think I'll run into problems fitting the shock in the stock ninja subframe though. I suspect there will be cutting involved...
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 11:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014