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Old 11-07-2012, 07:22 AM   #16
Foot dragger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usarider777 View Post
Yes he is actually considering to ask me to repair it.
If it was not in the Honda garage it probably would still be running!!!!
I just want to know somehing about the Honda engine.
On a Yamaha TT600 you need to put Helicouls once you have removed the Cilinder bolts.
I did not know that and shortly after replacing rings the thread stripped after only a few miles.
Does the Honda XR650L also need Helicoils after removing cilinder bolts?
What thread does it have?
I hear horror stories about shop mechanics pretty regular,local honda shop says nothing older then 1986 can be worked on there,mostly no parts to be had for them.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:09 AM   #17
usarider777 OP
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I am talking about a 2012 Model so the screws should get loose.
But maybe helicoils would not be a bad Idea, it may be easier to loosen the bolts if the engine needs to be opened a few years later.

I still try to find the reason for the bike using oil. It seems there was not enough dust going through te air filter for the engine to use oil.
Maybe overheating, The owner says at one time when he was driving about 60 with a heavy load in hot weather, the engine was loosing power.
Is this a sure sign of overheating or not?

usarider777 screwed with this post 11-07-2012 at 11:08 PM
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Old 11-11-2012, 04:07 AM   #18
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A 2012 which sounds like it hasn't been ridden much due to all the down time. I would venture to say the rings are not seated yet and you will burn oil until they do. Of course that is true within reason and since I did not see how much oil is consumed it is only a guess. Good luck.
BTW, my bikes have yet to be in the dealer's service bay.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:27 AM   #19
usarider777 OP
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I also start to think in this direction Maybe it was not run in properly.
The first trip wars about 1000miles at a speed of about 63mph it is a straight road almost no braking and acceleration just cruising along for hours in top gear, probably this is not a good way of running an engine in.
Or it could be that one of the rings had a factory fault and broke.

The bike has already about 13'000miles, if it is the rings that are not seated yet I wonder if it will ever happen.
Unfortunately the bike had to be serviced by the dealer or else he would loose the warranty.
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Old 11-11-2012, 03:34 PM   #20
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Compression test

A compression test will tell you a great deal about where the oil is going. I don't know that bike well but it could be valve seals/guides as well. Do dry and wet to narrow down the issue. A pressure leak-down test is another means of checking it out.
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Old 11-11-2012, 11:33 PM   #21
usarider777 OP
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Since the timing chain jumped and we heard the valves hitting the piston it has to be opened anyway, the owner considers it a waste of time to even take it to the dealer, a 500mile trip. Better to fix it yourself and loose the warranty. At least he knows it will be done properly. At the Honda dealer they do not even know how to adjust he tappets neither do they know what the service interval is. So I will open it up and we will know what is going on.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:45 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usarider777 View Post
Since the timing chain jumped and we heard the valves hitting the piston it has to be opened anyway, the owner considers it a waste of time to even take it to the dealer, a 500mile trip. Better to fix it yourself and loose the warranty. At least he knows it will be done properly. At the Honda dealer they do not even know how to adjust he tappets neither do they know what the service interval is. So I will open it up and we will know what is going on.
Tell your friend to keep in mind, it says right in the owners manual to check the oil frequently when riding at higher (freeway) speeds, these bikes use a little oil at extended higher speed running.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:49 PM   #23
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Thanks I will keep this in mind.
In the beginning it was using less oil. So there is definitely a problem. Not just normal oil using.
On his last trip 800Km (500miles) he had to top up about 4L (1gallon) of oil.
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:28 AM   #24
elsalvadorklr
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in 500 miles you had to use twice the regular oil change amount? yikes!

good luck
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:39 AM   #25
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One gallon of oil in 500 miles?? Your looking at replacing the piston. I'll bet ya a dollor to a doughnut.

You might use this: http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=713831
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:39 AM   #26
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Hi I think you are right 200%
Today I stripped the engine.
First thing I noticed is that the oil pipe from the oil tank to the engine is twisted very badly and stretched,
The mechanic who did the first service on the bike does not know how to tighten the pipe after cleaning the strainer from the oil tank, My guess was that it did not get enough oil.
When I opened the top. I found timing chain in order not much wear at all.
But really bad wear on the rockers for the cam shaft.

And the second thing the cam has more a blackish color and seize marks.
So I was pretty sure that it is the twisted pipe.
But where did the sound come from. It sounded like pistons hitting the valve.

After removing the barrel we found a broken piston.
The noise came from the piston parts being smashed between the barrel and the con rod.

One can see the marks on the con rod.

He must have been driving with this twisted and stretched pipe since the first service.
Strange that the Honda dealer never tested the oil pressure.
And even gave him a quotation for a new timing chain. Cant believe they do not even know that the noise came from the worn piston.

Now I just do not know how to remove all these piston parts. Some of them I found near the strainer.
Probably I have to open everything to make sure there is nothing left in the engine.

That piston still looks good compared to the one of the bike I opened today.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:44 PM   #27
mcma111
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I'll tell you right now the reason for this engine failing is due the dealership's mechanic. When he reattached the oil feed line to the down tube strainer he didn't "Hold Back" via the 12mm flats on the oil line and allowed it to spin and thus restrict the oil from from the frame to the oil pump. With restricted flow and resulting increased heat the top end which in it's self is delicate, the cam, rockers and piston all paid the price. Actually your friend is paying. There will be no way that the dealer is going to believe you on this. The noise your friend heard was from the excess clearance from the now shot cam and rocker arms. This just goes to show how even with a bunch of parts going bad that the engine continued to run.
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:52 PM   #28
Sierra Thumper
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Thumbs down The majority of service departments suck azz

Quote:
Originally Posted by usarider777 View Post
Hi I think you are right 200%
Today I stripped the engine.
First thing I noticed is that the oil pipe from the oil tank to the engine is twisted very badly and stretched,
The mechanic who did the first service on the bike does not know how to tighten the pipe after cleaning the strainer from the oil tank, My guess was that it did not get enough oil.
When I opened the top. I found timing chain in order not much wear at all.
But really bad wear on the rockers for the cam shaft.

And the second thing the cam has more a blackish color and seize marks.
So I was pretty sure that it is the twisted pipe.
But where did the sound come from. It sounded like pistons hitting the valve.

After removing the barrel we found a broken piston.
The noise came from the piston parts being smashed between the barrel and the con rod.

One can see the marks on the con rod.

He must have been driving with this twisted and stretched pipe since the first service.
Strange that the Honda dealer never tested the oil pressure.
And even gave him a quotation for a new timing chain. Cant believe they do not even know that the noise came from the worn piston.

Now I just do not know how to remove all these piston parts. Some of them I found near the strainer.
Probably I have to open everything to make sure there is nothing left in the engine.

That piston still looks good compared to the one of the bike I opened today.
Thats so sad but so typical.....another poor owner reamed bigtime by a service department ape that shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a wrench

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcma111 View Post
I'll tell you right now the reason for this engine failing is due the dealership's mechanic. When he reattached the oil feed line to the down tube strainer he didn't "Hold Back" via the 12mm flats on the oil line and allowed it to spin and thus restrict the oil from from the frame to the oil pump. With restricted flow and resulting increased heat the top end which in it's self is delicate, the cam, rockers and piston all paid the price. Actually your friend is paying. There will be no way that the dealer is going to believe you on this. The noise your friend heard was from the excess clearance from the now shot cam and rocker arms. This just goes to show how even with a bunch of parts going bad that the engine continued to run.
Yep the dealership screwed him over in the worst possible way, its going to cost him a complete rebuild+ who knows what other residual damage down the road, and of course they'll smile as they deny it all and refuse to do anything for him.
Nobody cares about your machinery or life as much as you, trusting a service department ape with either is a HUGE mistake...
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:04 AM   #29
usarider777 OP
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Hi
That is right, we will not let them know how they messed up the bike.
Sure it is not the first nor the last time. That is now their own problem.

At least the owner now knows that Honda are good bikes.

The first seizure of piston must have happened 7000Miles ago. The bike did actually never loose power.
The piston continued seizing all the time until it finally broke.
Amazing how tough this engine must be.
I am quite sure if it never had any service it would have gone a bit further than that.

In the old days before buying a bike you would look at the bikes Sevice booklet. If all the services were done you would smile. Today you would smile when the booklet is free from any dealer stamp.


A warranty job would not be an option who knows what they would do if they ever took responsibility.
At least he knows the engine will be done properly.

Of course the owner does not feel happy about it. But at least he has a bit more confidence in Honda bikes. Since there was a very serious cause for all the problems he had with the bike.

Now he tries to see it positive.
He considers putting on a stage one cam or a 700cc piston, or both.
Typical ambient temperature 100 F
His typical driving speed is between 40 and 90 mph.
He hardly ever goes slower than 40mph even on dirt tracks.

What effect would those modifications have on the bike?
Is it more likely to overheat in these hot ambient temperatures?
Will the engine wear out more quickly?

Any thoughts on this will be appreciated.
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:48 AM   #30
usarider777 OP
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Hi to all.
I decided to split the engine to make sure no piston parts are there.
The bush for the first gear and the counter shaft are seized. The first gear is still ok.
I can get the bush off but what is under is a mess blue seize marks etc.
So he needs a new counter shaft as well.

The Owner is lucky that id did not mess up the whole gearbox there are also some aluminum marks on some gears.
So some small parts of the piston must have gone through the gearbox.
I checked the if the shafts are straight and they seem ok.
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