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Old 11-01-2012, 10:07 AM   #3151
Andrew
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Originally Posted by Poolside View Post


Were you one of the half-million on the BART trains Wednesday night?

Ah, no... while folks were crammed into BART like sardines in a Crown Prince can, I was outside enjoying the fresh ICEE-AIR

Saw the parade up-close last time, it was big fun.

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Old 11-01-2012, 10:30 AM   #3152
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Question Explain Billboard

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Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
Ah, no... while folks were crammed into BART like sardines in a Crown Prince can, I was outside enjoying the fresh ICEE-AIR

Saw the parade up-close last time, it was big fun.

Being an escapee from Kalifornia many years ago...nothing happening in Bagdad-By-The-Sea or across the bay in Berserkly would surprise me...but can you decode the billboard message? Thanks...

Ps...Not Crazy Horse, I got that.....
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:00 PM   #3153
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Originally Posted by DriftDragon View Post
Well, since it's only partially wet... it will still rely on air cooling... perhaps it's kinda pretending to be wet... and not really a sign of true excitement that truely wet would indicate... Let's call it "Jelly Head" (as in personal lubricant squirted around the edges variety of wet)

Maybe "Depends Head"...again only slightly wet
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:55 PM   #3154
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Lean = Cooler?

PM wrote in #3146: "A hot motor, with warm intake air, will continue to run on very lean mixtures. The motor doesn't make the same power as it does with a richer mixture, but it runs cooler and emissions are lower."


I may be misreading this...lean = cooler = lower emissions? I get the emissions part but thought lean mixture increases cylinder temps. Hence if the input temp from sensor indicated a lower ambient temp, the mixture would go richer for the denser air and engine would run cooler due to presence of more fuel. But, hey, I could be wrong.
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Old 11-01-2012, 05:32 PM   #3155
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I had the same thought until PS corrected me. I started thinking about it in the sense of thermodynamics. To put it simply, if the cylinder temperatures got hotter as the mixture was leaned out then the absence of any fuel would result in infinite heat Now we know that won't work. Unfortunately.
Thinking of small aircraft, as you ascend you would lean the mixture to account for less dense air. As you do so the exhaust gas temp increases, yes. Not because lean= hotter, but because the excess fuel acts as a coolant. It absorbs the heat. As the mix is leaned out there is less "coolant" (vaporizing fuel) and the EGT goes up. However, only so far. If the mix is leaned further then it starts dropping (less fuel, less work, less heat) until combustion can no longer be supported.
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Old 11-01-2012, 05:46 PM   #3156
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OK...I Still Can't See That..Please Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Evil Twin View Post
I had the same thought until PS corrected me. I started thinking about it in the sense of thermodynamics. To put it simply, if the cylinder temperatures got hotter as the mixture was leaned out then the absence of any fuel would result in infinite heat Now we know that won't work. Unfortunately.
Thinking of small aircraft, as you ascend you would lean the mixture to account for less dense air. As you do so the exhaust gas temp increases, yes. Not because lean= hotter, but because the excess fuel acts as a coolant. It absorbs the heat. As the mix is leaned out there is less "coolant" (vaporizing fuel) and the EGT goes up. However, only so far. If the mix is leaned further then it starts dropping (less fuel, less work, less heat) until combustion can no longer be supported.
Two ways of stating same thing...lean mixture = less fuel = less "coolant"....therefore, lean mixture does result in increases of EGT or in my case the cylinder/engine temp on my boxer. More fuel in response to an ambient temp sensor that registers lower than actual ambient temps [hence air density is less than temp sensor would indicate] results in the fuel management putting more fuel [more coolant] into the cylinders resulting in a richer mixture. Sorry I know this not complicated, but I will be damned if I can see it...thanks for patience.

Kinda ...less fuel more temp [lean] : more fuel less temp [richer]
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:56 PM   #3157
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okay... after that discussion I take it back... lets go back to talking about magic pee packs.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:42 AM   #3158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Evil Twin View Post
I had the same thought until PS corrected me. I started thinking about it in the sense of thermodynamics. To put it simply, if the cylinder temperatures got hotter as the mixture was leaned out then the absence of any fuel would result in infinite heat Now we know that won't work. Unfortunately.
Thinking of small aircraft, as you ascend you would lean the mixture to account for less dense air. As you do so the exhaust gas temp increases, yes. Not because lean= hotter, but because the excess fuel acts as a coolant. It absorbs the heat. As the mix is leaned out there is less "coolant" (vaporizing fuel) and the EGT goes up. However, only so far. If the mix is leaned further then it starts dropping (less fuel, less work, less heat) until combustion can no longer be supported.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post
Two ways of stating same thing...lean mixture = less fuel = less "coolant"....therefore, lean mixture does result in increases of EGT or in my case the cylinder/engine temp on my boxer. More fuel in response to an ambient temp sensor that registers lower than actual ambient temps [hence air density is less than temp sensor would indicate] results in the fuel management putting more fuel [more coolant] into the cylinders resulting in a richer mixture. Sorry I know this not complicated, but I will be damned if I can see it...thanks for patience.

Kinda ...less fuel more temp [lean] : more fuel less temp [richer]
There are three different temperatures of interest: intake air, cylinderhead and exhaust temperatures.

Intake Air: For any desired air/fuel ratio (AFR) colder air, because it packs more oxygen, needs a little more fuel. Hotter air needs a little less fuel. For instance, if it takes a 2 millisecond injector pulse at 68 degrees Fahrenheit to reach an AFR of 14.7:1, then at 32F it takes a pulse of 2.12 milliseconds. At 104F it requires a pulse of only 1.88 milliseconds to achieve that same 14.7:1 AFR.

Cylinderhead: This reaches its peak temperature when the mixture is at its Best Power ratio. If normal cruising is at 14.7:1, the Best Power AFR is roughly 12.5:1. The cylinder head gets hottest because the combustion is making most power. Richer or leaner than Best Power and the CHT goes down.

Exhaust Gas: This reaches its peak at roughly the ideal combustion mixture (stoichiometric) of 14.7:1 for gasoline. (E10 reaches a peak at about 14.1:1 but you don't have to think about it because your O2 sensor makes this adjustment automatically.) richer or leaner than Stoic and the EGT goes down.

So as you can see CHT and EGT reach a peak at different mixtures. Richer isn't always cooler, and leaner isn't always hotter. But leaner than Stoic is always cooler for both CHT and EGT; the leaner you get above Stoic, the cooler that CYT and EGT get.

RB

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Old 11-02-2012, 05:45 AM   #3159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
There are three different temperatures of interest: intake air, cylinderhead and exhaust temperatures.

Intake Air: For any desired air/fuel ratio (AFR) colder air, because it packs more oxygen, needs a little more fuel. Hotter air needs a little less fuel. For instance, if it takes a 2 millisecond injector pulse at 68 degrees Fahrenheit to reach an AFR of 14.7:1, then at 32F it takes a pulse of 2.12 milliseconds. At 104F it requires a pulse of only 1.88 milliseconds to achieve that same 14.7:1 AFR.

Cylinderhead: This reaches its peak temperature when the mixture is at its Best Power ratio. If normal cruising is at 14.7:1, the Best Power AFR is roughly 12.5:1. The cylinder head gets hottest because the combustion is making most power. Richer or leaner than Best Power and the CHT goes down.

Exhaust Gas: This reaches its peak at roughly the ideal combustion mixture (stoichiometric) of 14.7:1 for gasoline. (E10 reaches a peak at about 14.1:1 but you don't have to think about it because your O2 sensor makes this adjustment automatically.) richer or leaner than Stoic and the EGT goes down.

So as you can see CHT and EGT reach a peak at different mixtures. Richer isn't always cooler, and leaner isn't always hotter. But leaner than Stoic is always cooler for both CHT and EGT; the leaner you get above Stoic, the cooler that CYT and EGT get.

RB

As a disclaimer, I (and probably "we") am talking about 10ths of AFR when talking about lean/ rich,
To add, as seen in the chart, depending on where you start with an engine, you could very well say that as you enrich the mixture the EGT temp goes up. So point of view has something to do with it Overly lean mix will not be any hotter than a overly rich mix.You can have too little or too much fuel to support strong combustion.Lean is typically fine at cruising/ low load situations. The AFR purpose is not necessarily to control temperatures on vehicles. Regardless, excess heat is wasted energy no matter if it is the exhaust or the cylinder head.
I will only agree with the above chart to an extent, though. It looks as if it is depicting temps for a moderately loaded engine. Under high loads, adding fuel (to an extent) will reduce temperatures in "best power" mode. IE, for gaining altitude in an aircraft. I whole heartedly agree with the relationship between cooler air being more dense and containing more O2 per unit volume. With piston engines, rich or lean/ CHT and EGT and what is an ideal ratio has much to do with loading.
Regardless, the vast majority of engines are lean running out of the gate.
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The Evil Twin screwed with this post 11-02-2012 at 05:55 AM Reason: change "lean" to "enrich" doh!
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:17 AM   #3160
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Appreciate the Views

Thanks for the comments and information. My experience has only been with carbureted motors [small block Chevy], old ones at that! If we ran lean on the track/course we would run the risk of burning valves and see engine oil temps skyrocket. The rule was when in doubt go rich. We indeed paid close attention to the AFR for endurance racing.

But this is strictly empirical and anecdotal; so I appreciate the education. Even at this "late date"!
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:45 AM   #3161
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Your experience with the carbureted small-block chevy is relevant. It probably ran with an AFR in the 11.5 to 13.0 range. From there to the 14.7 we run, the exhaust temperature gets 50-100F higher (estimated). Our bikes start out at 14.7, which is roughly peak EGT. I've richened my mixture across the board so have cooled EGT somewhat. It may be that future IIce products have that effect too. We'll have to wait to hear.
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:51 AM   #3162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Your experience with the carbureted small-block chevy is relevant. It probably ran with an AFR in the 11.5 to 13.0 range. From there to the 14.7 we run, the exhaust temperature gets 50-100F higher (estimated). Our bikes start out at 14.7, which is roughly peak EGT. I've richened my mixture across the board so have cooled EGT somewhat. It may be that future IIce products have that effect too. We'll have to wait to hear.
I got this from Wikipedia...my kind of Readers Digest information.

"A stoichiometric mixture unfortunately burns very hot and can damage engine components if the engine is placed under high load at this fuel–air mixture. Due to the high temperatures at this mixture, detonation of the fuel air mix shortly after maximum cylinder pressure is possible under high load (referred to as knocking or pinging). Detonation can cause serious engine damage as the uncontrolled burning of the fuel air mix can create very high pressures in the cylinder. As a consequence stoichiometric mixtures are only used under light load conditions. For acceleration and high load conditions, a richer mixture (lower air-fuel ratio) is used to produce cooler combustion products and thereby prevent detonation and overheating of the cylinder head."

I assumed that the IICE Air adjusted via the air temp sensor constants programmed into the settings to provide richer mixtures to help with throttle transitions under load to help with stumbling with BMW's OEM settings. My GSA is for off road use...so..on and off throttle under load is needed and transitions must be smooth...high ambient temps at low speeds, heavy loads [oil/air cooled] cause my engine temps to elevate...so yes, I am seeking more delicate and controlled use of throttle to stay hooked up and upright, while not self-digesting my motor due to excessive heat...so far the IICE Air has met those needs, more so in throttle control and less in reduced engine temps..throttle is less abrupt with IICE Air.

I too am eager to get the next two phases installed; the Smooth and Cool. Hope "cool" refers to temp!
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:59 AM   #3163
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Just had the GS up on the dyno yesterday. Interestingly the AFR was consistently between 13.5- 14:1 at cruising speeds (40-80 mph). As a matter of fact, mostly between 13.5- 13.7. Only down low in the RPM (>3000) range did it exceed 14.5:1 . The peak probably being when the throttle opened abruptly.
I have a full system waiting to go on and will be returning to retest. According to BMW, the EFI will not take any time to adjust, but I will ride through at least one tank first.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:18 AM   #3164
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Originally Posted by The Evil Twin View Post
Just had the GS up on the dyno yesterday. Interestingly the AFR was consistently between 13.5- 14:1 at cruising speeds (40-80 mph). As a matter of fact, mostly between 13.5- 13.7. Only down low in the RPM (>3000) range did it exceed 14.5:1 . The peak probably being when the throttle opened abruptly.
I have a full system waiting to go on and will be returning to retest. According to BMW, the EFI will not take any time to adjust, but I will ride through at least one tank first.
Most dyno runs are made at WOT so I guess your's were. Torque and Horsepower are then derived from the rate of acceleration. So you probably know, but I'll mention, that those AFRs are not what you would measure cruising at those speeds. For WOT acceleration, those AFRs are relatively lean.

If your we're on a different type of dyno you could measure AFR under load at steady speeds. Even up to 100 mph my 1150 has gone into Closed Loop which means the AFR will be set by the transition point of your O2 sensor which is 14.7:1 in your case.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:12 PM   #3165
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Most dyno runs are made at WOT so I guess your's were. Torque and Horsepower are then derived from the rate of acceleration. So you probably know, but I'll mention, that those AFRs are not what you would measure cruising at those speeds. For WOT acceleration, those AFRs are relatively lean.

If your we're on a different type of dyno you could measure AFR under load at steady speeds. Even up to 100 mph my 1150 has gone into Closed Loop which means the AFR will be set by the transition point of your O2 sensor which is 14.7:1 in your case.
They knew what I was looking for. Not just peak numbers, but overall conditions. Since this time of year is slow, we spent a decent amount of time in the roller. Luckily, since it is slow season, it only cost me what the tech cost the shop; $30.
We ran at those cruising speeds for a couple minutes. 40-80mph in 4th 5th and 6th gear. Until it started showing 5 bars on the temp gauge, and then we let her cool down. WOT runs weren't much different but maybe by a couple tics. We did not do any cruise under 3k rpm.
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