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Old 11-15-2012, 11:50 AM   #46
DannyZRC
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Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Merced, CA
Oddometer: 808
I never said anything about valves, I said plumbing. I was referring to intake and exhaust manifold, airbox and header length tuning etc.

Motorcycles don't (usually) have 6+ cylinders, so V2 or V4 engines are the V engines in question, and those have uneven firing, which means larger torque variations, which means heavier driveline parts, which means more parasitic losses through the drivetrain. The big V engines in ships have many cylinders, which can be arranged to have even firing, so this is a problem not shared between large and small V engines.

I never attributed the economy difference only to the frictional losses in the engine, you are accidentally strawmanning me due to the language barrier.

A V4 doesn't need a balance shaft, an I4 needs 2, but a balance shaft is not the cure for torque fluctuation in the output, that's handled elsewhere in the driveline and has friction penalties associated.

A V4 GP bike can have the fueltank under the seat to make room for a complex and expensive to manufacture airbox, it can have carefully hand welded exhaust manifolds, but it's easier to package effective airbox and exhaust solutions with low manufacturing costs on an inline engine.

There are some theoretical disadvantages which can't be overcome in a V engine, but there are many practical disadvantages which can be but aren't overcome due to cost.

In any case it's a giant derail, I'll stop ;p
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:58 AM   #47
Bugz
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Joined: Jan 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyZRC View Post
I never said anything about valves, I said plumbing. I was referring to intake and exhaust manifold, airbox and header length tuning etc.

Motorcycles don't (usually) have 6+ cylinders, so V2 or V4 engines are the V engines in question, and those have uneven firing, which means larger torque variations, which means heavier driveline parts, which means more parasitic losses through the drivetrain. The big V engines in ships have many cylinders, which can be arranged to have even firing, so this is a problem not shared between large and small V engines.

I never attributed the economy difference only to the frictional losses in the engine, you are accidentally strawmanning me due to the language barrier.

A V4 doesn't need a balance shaft, an I4 needs 2, but a balance shaft is not the cure for torque fluctuation in the output, that's handled elsewhere in the driveline and has friction penalties associated.

A V4 GP bike can have the fueltank under the seat to make room for a complex and expensive to manufacture airbox, it can have carefully hand welded exhaust manifolds, but it's easier to package effective airbox and exhaust solutions with low manufacturing costs on an inline engine.

There are some theoretical disadvantages which can't be overcome in a V engine, but there are many practical disadvantages which can be but aren't overcome due to cost.

In any case it's a giant derail, I'll stop ;p
Don't get me wrong. I didn't mean to 'strawman'(that's the first time I've read that word lol..)

Ok. I have to take a look at torque fluctations again then. Starting to get really curious how big these friction penalties are.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:41 PM   #48
sweetwater
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Location: Charlotte Metro
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Nemuro....where'd you go? What did you pick? Tell us how it all washes out in the end...
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:49 AM   #49
ChangJiangMonkey
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Joined: Feb 2010
Location: Shanghai, China
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An inexpensive and new option... I have had mine in for almost 1 year and I love it....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ_bg2c-CmU
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:57 AM   #50
JerryH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dddd View Post
Why? explain that to me, please. I beg you.

All falls I had and those of people I know (all falls related to locking some wheel) could have been avoided with abs, I kid you not. And EFI, common, it never fails and makes it SOO much simpler to cold start. It even works with a dead battery nowadays.

So I really want to know what arguments you are thinking of, really. Your statement just jaw dropping right now.
A motorcycle is not a car. A motorcycle is supposed to be fun, and is supposed to require a lot of skill to ride properly. Motorcycles are dangerous, there is no doubt about that. And they are not for everybody. Nor should the be. It takes a special type of person to ride a motorcycle. For the rest there are cars.

To me a motorcycle is supposed to be a MACHINE and that means no electronics (electronics, not electrics, motor vehicles have electrics) A motorcycle is supposed to be a very basic elemental machine. For me they are an escape from the technology I have to live with the rest of the time. Still, FI would not absolutely prevent me from buying a motorcycle with it. I would avoid it if I could.

But ABS is an entirely different matter, and I will never own or ride a motorcycle with it. To me the whole purpose of riding a motorcycle, and where all the fun comes from, is in controlling the bike. It comes form using all the skills I have learned over the past 35 years (all accident free on the street) to make the bike do what I want it to do. I will not have a computer taking over control of MY motorcycle.

And for those who think ABS will always save them, well, not so. Many riders have gone down on ABS bikes by overbraking on slippery surfaces. ABS prevents the wheel from completely locking up, but it comes close enough to cause you to loose traction, and if you are leaned over when that happens, you are going down. So not only does ABS interfere with your control of the bike, but it also prevents a false sense of security.

I am surprised to find so many proponents of ABS on an adventure riding forum. Riding a motorcycle at all is dangerous, adventure riding is a lot more dangerous. It's hard to accept the fact that a real adventure rider (most of whom seem to have a pretty macho attitude) would feel they need training wheels on their bike (which is what ABS is to me) Adventure riding is all about taking chances, about risking your life and safety to do something which most people and even many riders would consider crazy. Anyone willing to ride a motorcycle from Alaska to the tip of South America surely would not need or want ABS.

The fuel system and brakes on many bikes are already controlled by computers. Hoe long will it be before everything is? What will there be for the rider to do? Where will the fun come form? Just how much are you willing to give up for safety? Life is full of risks. Risks are what makes life worth living. There is a lot of pleasure in using your skills to beat the odds. And if you ride a motorcycle at all, the odds are already stacked against you. Maybe the best safety device is to already be dead. That way you do not have to worry about getting seriously injured or killed.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:15 AM   #51
DAKEZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
A motorcycle is not a car. A motorcycle is supposed to be fun,...
Agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
... and is supposed to require a lot of skill to ride properly.
Define "a lot" It realy is not that hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
Motorcycles are dangerous, there is no doubt about that.
COMPLETE A motorcycle is only as dangerous as the one piloting the motorcycle.


Way to mow down the masses with your free flying and erroneous statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
It takes a special type of person to ride a motorcycle.
More I agree it is not for everyone but anyone that can remain remotely focused can safely pilot one with a little practice. Does that constitute Special?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
To me a motorcycle is supposed to be a MACHINE
This does NOT jive with what is above. A motorcycle IS a machine which means it is NOT inherently dangerous. What makes a motorcycle (or any tool or machine) dangerous is the one at the controls.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:04 AM   #52
dddd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
A motorcycle is not a car. A motorcycle is supposed to be fun, and is supposed to require a lot of skill to ride properly. Motorcycles are dangerous, there is no doubt about that. And they are not for everybody. Nor should the be. It takes a special type of person to ride a motorcycle. For the rest there are cars.

To me a motorcycle is supposed to be a MACHINE and that means no electronics (electronics, not electrics, motor vehicles have electrics) A motorcycle is supposed to be a very basic elemental machine. For me they are an escape from the technology I have to live with the rest of the time. Still, FI would not absolutely prevent me from buying a motorcycle with it. I would avoid it if I could.

But ABS is an entirely different matter, and I will never own or ride a motorcycle with it. To me the whole purpose of riding a motorcycle, and where all the fun comes from, is in controlling the bike. It comes form using all the skills I have learned over the past 35 years (all accident free on the street) to make the bike do what I want it to do. I will not have a computer taking over control of MY motorcycle.

And for those who think ABS will always save them, well, not so. Many riders have gone down on ABS bikes by overbraking on slippery surfaces. ABS prevents the wheel from completely locking up, but it comes close enough to cause you to loose traction, and if you are leaned over when that happens, you are going down. So not only does ABS interfere with your control of the bike, but it also prevents a false sense of security.

I am surprised to find so many proponents of ABS on an adventure riding forum. Riding a motorcycle at all is dangerous, adventure riding is a lot more dangerous. It's hard to accept the fact that a real adventure rider (most of whom seem to have a pretty macho attitude) would feel they need training wheels on their bike (which is what ABS is to me) Adventure riding is all about taking chances, about risking your life and safety to do something which most people and even many riders would consider crazy. Anyone willing to ride a motorcycle from Alaska to the tip of South America surely would not need or want ABS.

The fuel system and brakes on many bikes are already controlled by computers. Hoe long will it be before everything is? What will there be for the rider to do? Where will the fun come form? Just how much are you willing to give up for safety? Life is full of risks. Risks are what makes life worth living. There is a lot of pleasure in using your skills to beat the odds. And if you ride a motorcycle at all, the odds are already stacked against you. Maybe the best safety device is to already be dead. That way you do not have to worry about getting seriously injured or killed.
You describe very well YOUR perception of it. I dont ride a bike for the thrill of danger nor to brag about skills. I ride it for travelling, go far and experience these places, roads, wheather better than in a car. Not to mention the fun to lean, carve a turn, saves on gas and slip into tiny places to avoid congestion... But you have every right to buy a challenging machine. Just dont say that tech doesn't have its place on ANY bikes.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:05 AM   #53
bikeseamus
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Thumb Danger is fun?

I agree that motorcycles aren't more dangerous than cars. The "jaws of life" that emergency rescue people use were NOT designed to free people trapped inside flaming motorcycles.I have been riding now for over 50 years and can say I have avoided head on collisions on four occasions and being T Boned at intersections on two occasions BECAUSE I was riding a motorcycle. Cresting hills, I always ride in the outside 12" of the road.... Once on a bridge in Kona I avoided being smashed when a car driver fell asleep as he was crossing the long bridge. I was poised to leap into the Ocean to avoid being hit... stopped on the side of the bridge, when he whizzed by and missed me by a foot or two. The other 3 times happened when the oncoming cars crested the hill inside my lane. Avoiding a head on collision would have been impossible on anything but a bike, end of subject. I was saved from 2 T Bone accidents by always riding a motorcycle with plenty of horsepower. These two potential murderers blew the red light at the intersections and would have hit me if I weren't able to power out of the potentially deadly crash. Saved by the horsepower that allowed the accelleration.
Horsepower saved me from certain injury, end of subject.
As for injection on a bike..... I enjoy being able to not worry about cleaning garfed up old petroswill from my carbs every Spring. Don't misunderstand me, I am an ex professional bike tech and carbs are great fun to dial in and tune. Pop them off and clean them without all that electronic stuff to buy and learn how to use.... cool. On the other hand, as I have owned injected bikes I have grown fond of the fine tuning they are now capable of delivering. Early injection systems were buggy and inconsistent, but motoevolution has taken place and the new injection systems are superb. I enjoy simplicity in my bikes, but also enjoy not breaking down in the middle of nowhere. I lived in Interior Alaska for 15 years and am speaking from that experience. Breakdowns in Interior Alaska often result in death.
I enjoy arriving alive and on time.
One can choose to invite the grim reaper ahead of schedule by being dangerous with ANYTHING. Give a fool a gun and he will very likely do something dangerous with it. Give that fool a book of matches and he will likely do the same. Strong drink, powerful drugs, wildly fun women... fast cars or bikes.... the list goes on and on.... If a fool has a stick he will find a way to be stupid with it. Modern bikes are fun partly because they are so powerful and handle so well.
When in the hands of a dangerous person, they can be dangerous. They have saved my life when touring and in daily use, and are not dangerous when I am driving them, end of subject. I would thank Mr Dangerous to please stay away from me. Keep the danger in your own lane, please, and tell me how kissing that walnut tree or oncoming truck works out for you.
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