How about that Peyton Manning fellow?

[Greco]

Originally Posted by dmac1

Yeah...Manning looks great and I love watching him work his magic, but all aspects of the Broncos looks good right now. The defense especially! Man alive I haven't seen D like that in a LONG time! Its to the points its more fun to watch than the O...last few games for sure!

Bummer about McGahee though. 6-8 weeks. Torn MCL. Looks like Knowshon will be toting the rock. Hope he doesn't put the ball on the ground!

Fixd!

[doc_ricketts]

Originally Posted by TheDudeAbides

I liked Elway from the get go.
Strongest arm maybe in the history of the league, top notch accuracy, unparalleded scrambling ability, unsurpassed leadership and a true athlete who was listed as our back up punter and kicker several years.

But mostly I liked the fact that he could get to 3 Super Bowls with a dog-crap offensive line, no-name running backs, mediocre wide receivers and the most conservative coach in the NFL in Dan Reeves. Run it on first down, run it on second down, pray Elway can bail us out on 3rd down. Imagine Elways stats if he'd had Marino's O-line or Joe Montana's receiving corps, running game and Bill Walsh's play calling.

When Shannahan and Terrel Davis arrived, we finally got a 2 - 3 year glimpse of what Elway could have been for 15 years.

Yeah no help at all from Terrell Davis and Shannon Sharpe while Elway went 12 for 22 against Green Bay, but did make the highlight reels with his 'helicopter' move. He had guts to go along with his big mouth, agreed, but I wouldn't put him in the class of people like Dan Marino or even Andrew Luck and RGIII of the new lot. And I give lots of credit for the Super Bowl final successes to Mike Shanahan.

[TheDudeAbides]

Originally Posted by doc_ricketts

Yeah no help at all from Terrell Davis and Shannon Sharpe while Elway went 12 for 22 against Green Bay, but did make the highlight reels with his 'helicopter' move. He had guts to go along with his big mouth, agreed, but I wouldn't put him in the class of people like Dan Marino or even Andrew Luck and RGIII of the new lot. And I give lots of credit for the Super Bowl final successes to Mike Shanahan.

I've never heard of Andrew Luck or RGIII, but then again I only watch Super Bowls.

[TheDudeAbides]

Originally Posted by doc_ricketts

Yeah no help at all from Terrell Davis and Shannon Sharpe while Elway went 12 for 22 against Green Bay, but did make the highlight reels with his 'helicopter' move. He had guts to go along with his big mouth, agreed, but I wouldn't put him in the class of people like Dan Marino or even Andrew Luck and RGIII of the new lot. And I give lots of credit for the Super Bowl final successes to Mike Shanahan.

Thank you Doc, you're making my point for me. Before Elway had a star running back like Davis and a star TE like Sharpe, he still took his teams to 3 Super Bowls. He went to Super Bowls out of a tough AFC with running backs like Gerald Wilhite and Glynn Milburn and Reggie Rivers. Once he finally got the supporting cast that Marino, Montana, Aikman, & Bradshaw always had, he finally won 2 Super Bowls.
You conveniently left out that Elway also rushed for 1 touchdown against Green Bay and the following year in the back to back Super Bowl Elway went 18 for 29 for 339yds, a TD and an MVP trophy.

Marino was a great quarterback. But surrounded by the Marks Brothers and a fantastic O-line, he made it to only 1 Super Bowl, zero wins, zero MVP trophies.

And so far, Andrew Luck and RGIII have yet to take a snap in a playoff game. We can have that conversation in 15 years or so. What I do know is that Elway played 15 seasons and made it to 5 Super Bowls. Most of his career he was surrounded by less than Pro Bowl talent and a very very conservative coach.

[doc_ricketts]

Originally Posted by TheDudeAbides

Thank you Doc, you're making my point for me. Before Elway had a star running back like Davis and a star TE like Sharpe, he still took his teams to 3 Super Bowls. He went to Super Bowls out of a tough AFC with running backs like Gerald Wilhite and Glynn Milburn and Reggie Rivers. Once he finally got the supporting cast that Marino, Montana, Aikman, & Bradshaw always had, he finally won 2 Super Bowls.
You conveniently left out that Elway also rushed for 1 touchdown against Green Bay and the following year in the back to back Super Bowl Elway went 18 for 29 for 339yds, a TD and an MVP trophy.

Marino was a great quarterback. But surrounded by the Marks Brothers and a fantastic O-line, he made it to only 1 Super Bowl, zero wins, zero MVP trophies.

And so far, Andrew Luck and RGIII have yet to take a snap in a playoff game. We can have that conversation in 15 years or so. What I do know is that Elway played 15 seasons and made it to 5 Super Bowls. Most of his career he was surrounded by less than Pro Bowl talent and a very very conservative coach.

Don't get me wrong, I think Elway was a 'great' QB, but in his early years he showed none of the talent that Marino or Montana actually had and that Luck and RGIII show so well in their first year which Elway stunk up. Elway's strength was physical strength and the ability to take punishment, as well as throw the long ball. I guess most of that came from his tremendous ego, which seems to have something to do with teeth, ya think:

[TheDudeAbides]

Elway didn't start all of his first season. He backed up Steve Deberg
But in his second season he started all 16 games, going 13-3.

[murgatroid42]

Originally Posted by doc_ricketts

... Don't get me wrong, I think Elway was a 'great' QB, but in his early years he showed none of the talent that Marino or Montana actually had and that Luck and RGIII show so well in their first year which Elway stunk up. ...

Marino was a fast starter, and Montana was (arguably) the best QB ever. Marino had the stats, but I wouldn't trade Elway for him.

Here are some interesting first year stats on Hall of Fame quarterbacks, with my comments:

Troy Aikman (1989) 11 games; 155-293 for 1749 yards; 9 TD; 18 INT; 55.9 passer rating. A career 81.6 passer rating. Never had a 4000 yard passing season.
[3 Super Bowl wins. He went 1-15 his first year]

John Elway (1983) 11 games; 123-259 for 1663 yards; 7 TD; 14 INT; 54.9 passer rating. Only one season with a passer rating over 90 (1993). Who knew he’d walk away with two Super Bowl titles?
[2 Super Bowl wins. He was benched for his first year for Steve Deberg.]

Warren Moon (1984) 16 games; 259-450 for 3338 yards; 12 TD; 14 INT; 76.9 passer rating. Never had a 16 game season with less than 14 INTs
[Played in Canada most of his career, was not thought to be NFL material.]

Steve Young (1986) 14 games; 195-363 for 2282 yards; 8 TD; 13 INT; 65.5 passer rating. His legs couldn’t prevent concussions. Ended up with the best ever career passer rating. Spent six years as Joe Montana’s backup.
[1 Super Bowl win. Not a very good passer rating for the first year, considering he ended with the best.]

Jim Kelly (1986) 16 games; 285-480 for 3593 yards; 22 TD; 17 INT; 83.3 passer rating. Spent first two professional years starting in USFL.
[4 Super Bowls, no wins.]

Potential Hall of Fame QB stats in their first full year as an NFL starter.

Peyton Manning (1998) 16 games; 326-575 for 3739 yards; 26 TD; 28 INT (ouch!); 71.2 passer rating. Won 3 games that year which is one of just two seasons in 12 years with less than 10 wins.
[1 Super Bowl win. He got better. ]

Drew Brees (2002) 16 games; 320-526 for 3284 yards; 17 TD; 16 INT; 76.9 passer rating. Following year was worse (67.5 passer rating) before 6 straight seasons of 89 passer rating or higher. Mr. Who Dat got dismissed by the San Diego Chargers only to eventually win a Super Bowl elsewhere.
[1 Super Bowl win. Getting rid of him was the worst San Diego move since drafting Ryan Leaf]

These guys got better later in their careers.

To be fair, Elway was drafted almost 30 years ago. Today's college game is far more sophisticated than 3 decades ago, QB's are coached and prepared much better, so it is no surprise players such as Luck, RGIII, and Cam Newton understand the pro game and can fit in right away.

Also, most of these teams were able to draft these great quarterbacks because they stunk. That made it harder for any rookie to win.

[doc_ricketts]

Originally Posted by murgatroid42

To be fair, Elway was drafted almost 30 years ago. Today's college game is far more sophisticated than 3 decades ago, QB's are coached and prepared much better, so it is no surprise players such as Luck, RGIII, and Cam Newton understand the pro game and can fit in right away.

Also, most of these teams were able to draft these great quarterbacks because they stunk. That made it harder for any rookie to win.

You are right on about the recent QBs understanding the game better, but the physical/mental skills have evolved also. I have been having fun watching/comparing Michael Vick and RGIII. RGIII is a step above in overall skills, although both are very highly mobile and can throw off balance. RGIII had a stellar game against Philly on Sunday, and completed 14 of 15 passes for 200 yards, including touchdown passes of 6, 49, 61 and 17 - one in each quarter. He also ran 12 times for 84 yards.
I guess Elway will never be one of my favs partially because of his ego. I watched him over the years and even been in the same room with him and just don't like the guy. Right now Drew Brees is the best QB in the game and is super entertaining to watch. By the way, if anybody is interested in the fine details of the Colorado 'sports' scene, I ran across this excellent digital magazine which is outstanding in its subject matter and style:
http://digital.publicationprinters.c...tion/?i=114555

[doc_ricketts]

Didn't get to see any of the Broncos vs Tampa Bay game (should have tapped it with Wiziwig), but it looks like Peyton did his usual 2nd half magic after learning how to beat the defenders. Some good games of which I only watched the last couple minutes: Andrew Luck pulled his game out with 4 secs left, Russell Wilson clearly controlled his game for the Seahawks, and Charlie Batch, the old guy, did his thing for Pittsburgh along with the newbie quwbeezs.

[TheDudeAbides]

Originally Posted by doc_ricketts

Didn't get to see any of the Broncos vs Tampa Bay game (should have tapped it with Wiziwig), but it looks like Peyton did his usual 2nd half magic after learning how to beat the defenders. Some good games of which I only watched the last couple minutes: Andrew Luck pulled his game out with 4 secs left, Russell Wilson clearly controlled his game for the Seahawks, and Charlie Batch, the old guy, did his thing for Pittsburgh along with the newbie quwbeezs.

If the playoffs started today, the Broncos and Manning would host the Colts and Luck. Pretty cool.

[doc_ricketts]

Originally Posted by TheDudeAbides

If the playoffs started today, the Broncos and Manning would host the Colts and Luck. Pretty cool.

Yes, that will be cool. Luck really looked good at the end of the game today.
The Monday Night game tomorrow will be good too. RGIII versus Eli M.
In case you missed it, here is the catch near the game end by Calvin Johnson (Megatron):

[TheDudeAbides]

Hey Paul,
If you need any help around the machine shop, I think Norv Turner is available.

[theantipaul]

Originally Posted by TheDudeAbides

Hey Paul,
If you need any help around the machine shop, I think Norv Turner is available.

Cheerleaders maybe, I have enough trouble with my present "help".

How's Bowlen doing these days, have they found where Elways buried him?

[TheDudeAbides]

Originally Posted by theantipaul

Cheerleaders maybe, I have enough trouble with my present "help".

How's Bowlen doing these days, have they found where Elways buried him?

Elway is leading candidate for NFL Executive of the year, thank you for asking.

Bowlen is out surfing with Bobby Beathard.

[theantipaul]

Originally Posted by TheDudeAbides

Elway is leading candidate for NFL Executive of the year, thank you for asking.

Bowlen is out surfing with Bobby Beathard.

And candidate Obama is President, big freaking deal, none of them can surf, but has anyone seen Bowlen since Elway's ego got involved? You're welcome.

BTW When are we drinking again?