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Old 11-20-2012, 10:15 AM   #16
larryboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by def View Post
Larry, I am not an expert regarding batteries, or much else, for that matter.

I would recommend you read this thread.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934

There are some folks who are experts and I bow to their knowledge.

My experience with Li batteries is limited to power tools and cell phones where they work very well.

I am still a fan of the Odyssey AGM battery for the boxer.

I'm a steam and coal guy when it comes to generating electric power...does that tell you anything about my level of knowledge?

I'm more of a two tires on the ground kind of guy and form my opinions based on experience...if I judged a product by reading about it I wouldn't own a BMW.

I bow to no man.

I shut the bike off for picture taking, I bet I restarted my 1150 sixty times with my Ballistic battery on my last trip. Ecperience says it's fine, experience also says that BMW grounds to the block need to be cleaned and tightened.

YourVoltageMayVary
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:24 PM   #17
def
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryboy View Post
I'm more of a two tires on the ground kind of guy and form my opinions based on experience...if I judged a product by reading about it I wouldn't own a BMW.

Experience? Me too....the experience of others. And if I were buying a new motorcycle today, it would likely not be a BMW.

I bow to no man. Nor do I but I do respect the knowledge of others.

I shut the bike off for picture taking, I bet I restarted my 1150 sixty times with my Ballistic battery on my last trip. Ecperience says it's fine, experience also says that BMW grounds to the block need to be cleaned and tightened.

YourVoltageMayVary
You obviously have had a good experience with your Li battery. Me? I'll wait until they are lower cost. Safe travels.

def
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:59 PM   #18
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Update... spoke with Ballistic Batteries. They thought that the battery might be defective. So they are replacing it. I will pick it up at the dealer today and let you know.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:29 PM   #19
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The BMW boxer engine requires quite a bit of starter motor torque to spin the engine past compression stroke, especially at cold start. As each piston approaches TDC during starting, the starter motor current demand increases rapidly placing increased demand on the battery and other starter circuit components.

Li FePo batteries do not respond to this rising rate demand as well as a lead-acid battery. Hence, these batteries don't perform well in engine start applications. As such, if a Li battery is used in this application, considerably more battery capacity should be chosen over lead-acid to insure reliable starting.

Also, my diesel motorhome powerplant has a compression ratio of about 15.5:1. When cold, the starter needs lots of CCAs to spin the engine successfully without overloading the starter circuit. If the batteries are not fully charged, the current diminishes as pistons come to TDC placing further demand on the starter circuit, starter solenoid and wiring.

Yes, LiFePo batteries are light weight. They are fine for applications where there is a kick starter and the battery is used for ignition such as on moto cross bikes.

As I stated, they aren't ready for prime time just yet IMO.
huh ... one of the advantages of Lithium batteries is it's ability to deliver HUGE amps.

but drawback is extra costs as compared in equal amp hour energy delivered. more amp hour capacity = more $$$

this is why LiFePO4 batteries found it's first non-electric vehicle acceptance in the marketplace in Motorcycles and not in applications like starting diesels or cars. to create a battery with enough amp hours to support those applications. costs would exceed benefit.

what's it worth to you to save say 10lbs.... for the weight wienie paying $$$ for carbon parts for his race bike and/or wanna be race bike. those are some of the cheapest lbs one can unload.

but for most folks ... best replacement battery still remains AGM. unless of course it's worth all the $$$ to save those 5-10 lbs.

yes ... one can successfully use LiFePO4 batteries in the most demanding applications. but the amp hour capacity has to be there. my recommendation is actual lead acid amp hour ... less 25%.

if you follow most lithium battery mfg suggestions. you'll end up with a battery that supports your bike in the summer. NOT for the winter.

R1200GS has some pretty demanding requirements. including needing reserve amp hour capacity to crank bike over repeatedly if your bike should go down from contaminated fuels, etc. there will be times pounding on fuel pump while cranking and cranking will get your bike back up again.

for cold weather, one needs to understand warm up cycles consumes amp hours. starting procedures has to be learned to start your motorcycle in cold conditions.

your heated gear doesn't understand all those fancy PB/EQ ratings battery mfg use. heated gear draws real amps... if your lithium battery say has only 4.6 amp hours. then your heated suit uses a chunk of that reserve just before you put bike away.... guess what happens next morning?

above is why for most folks ... my recommendation is to stick with AGM. but some of us are willing to pay the toll to save 10lbs. not likely someone trying to sell you a lithium battery will inform you... probably because they don't know better.

here's a chart listing voltages with corresponding battery charge state

_cy_ screwed with this post 11-21-2012 at 01:50 PM
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:54 PM   #20
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Off topic however, here goes.....So CY, would you recommend I shop for LiFePo engine start batteries for my diesel motor-home?

1- Once I get to where I will overnight, I shut off the engine and use the leveling system (high current demand).

2- When cold starting the diesel, I usually allow the intake air heater to run for 30 seconds prior to spinning the starter regardless of outside temperature. This hastens starting requiring less turns of the starter.

3- When garaged, I use the battery disconnect and apply a smart charger to the batteries (two 12VDC batteries in parallel).

The coach is equipped with a 150 amp alternator.

Your thoughts please.

BTW, the chassis batteries are OE (12 years old).
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:44 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by def View Post
Off topic however, here goes.....So CY, would you recommend I shop for LiFePo engine start batteries for my diesel motor-home?

1- Once I get to where I will overnight, I shut off the engine and use the leveling system (high current demand).

2- When cold starting the diesel, I usually allow the intake air heater to run for 30 seconds prior to spinning the starter regardless of outside temperature. This hastens starting requiring less turns of the starter.

3- When garaged, I use the battery disconnect and apply a smart charger to the batteries (two 12VDC batteries in parallel).

The coach is equipped with a 150 amp alternator.

Your thoughts please.

BTW, the chassis batteries are OE (12 years old).
not no .. but hell NO ... starting a diesel takes hefty amp hours. especially if one has to run glow plugs which don't understand PB/EQ . then factor in if a diesel gets finicky to start for what ever reason... like too much fuel.

that said... let's say you've got unlimited $$$ and just want it. despite everyone telling otherwise.

can it be done... hell yes! just be prepared to shell out some HUGE $$$. to find out how much... look at similar costs to set up a bank of lithium batteries for an electric car.

if the last set lasted 12 years.. that's a pretty argument for staying with what works.

follow this link on how to live with an AGM bank of batteries designed to support extended stay sail boats. absolutely worth your time... LOTS of pertinent information!

http://www.morganscloud.com/2010/08/...y-test-part-1/

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Old 11-03-2013, 11:26 AM   #22
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Ballistic Failure

Ballistic Performance Components recommended a 12 cell EVO2 battery for my 2010 BMW R1200 GS Adventure. This battery would not reliably turn my engine over especially when the temperature was lower than 50 F. The dealer arranged a replacement for me to try again. This one too was too weak to crank over my 1200 cc boxer engine.
After speaking with Ballistic, the owner himself replaced my 12 cell battery with the 16 cell battery. This worked ok but still had some problems when the temperature dropped below 35 F.
On a recent long distance trip, the 16 cell battery suddenly failed and would not even turn over my engine. After returning the battery to Ballistic Performance Components, I was told that the battery was full of water and most likely had been submersed in water. The water caused the battery to short out. Now it is useless after 10 months and would not be covered under warranty.
Here is the problem... My 16 cell battery was never submersed in water! In fact my bike was not even washed in this time period. I ride every day rain or shine. The owner could not tell me why the water was in the battery other than it MUST have been submersed in water. I believe that there was a flaw in the plastic housing such as a crack or poor weld that allowed wheel spray into the battery.
How can Ballistic Performance Components sell a product that is advertised as impact and water resistant and that can be mounted in any position for any power sport? Evidently, this battery is not ready for prime time! Do not purchase!
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:42 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by DrWez View Post
Ballistic Performance Components recommended a 12 cell EVO2 battery for my 2010 BMW R1200 GS Adventure. This battery would not reliably turn my engine over especially when the temperature was lower than 50 F. The dealer arranged a replacement for me to try again. This one too was too weak to crank over my 1200 cc boxer engine.
After speaking with Ballistic, the owner himself replaced my 12 cell battery with the 16 cell battery. This worked ok but still had some problems when the temperature dropped below 35 F.
On a recent long distance trip, the 16 cell battery suddenly failed and would not even turn over my engine. After returning the battery to Ballistic Performance Components, I was told that the battery was full of water and most likely had been submersed in water. The water caused the battery to short out. Now it is useless after 10 months and would not be covered under warranty.
Here is the problem... My 16 cell battery was never submersed in water! In fact my bike was not even washed in this time period. I ride every day rain or shine. The owner could not tell me why the water was in the battery other than it MUST have been submersed in water. I believe that there was a flaw in the plastic housing such as a crack or poor weld that allowed wheel spray into the battery.
How can Ballistic Performance Components sell a product that is advertised as impact and water resistant and that can be mounted in any position for any power sport? Evidently, this battery is not ready for prime time! Do not purchase!
that's pretty poor performance!

a 12 cell or 16 cell should put out plenty of cranking amps to start your R1200 during warm weather. the 16 cell (10 AH) should have performed during colder weather too.

what's your alternator putting out at idle and at 3,000 rpm? use a known to be correct meter at measured at battery.

target voltage for LiFePO4 is 13.3v (90%) when putting bike up for the night.
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Old 11-03-2013, 11:05 PM   #24
fabiox
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ballistic batterie sucks

I hate mine i need to crank 3 or more time to link the ABS
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Old 11-04-2013, 02:49 AM   #25
bracky72
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I was happy with mine for a year until it failed. Now I'm happily using a duramax from autozone.
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Old 11-04-2013, 04:46 AM   #26
DrWez OP
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Cy... I haven't measured the Ballistic battery before I leave the bike overnight. It is charging at ~13.3 V at idle (via GS-911 data).

Others...how did your batteries fail?

I have made claims with WI consumer protection agency, BBB, and the BMW MOA consumer protection. If these don't work then small claims court.

I'm hoping others will join in with me.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:41 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWez View Post
Cy... I haven't measured the Ballistic battery before I leave the bike overnight. It is charging at ~13.3 V at idle (via GS-911 data).

Others...how did your batteries fail?

I have made claims with WI consumer protection agency, BBB, and the BMW MOA consumer protection. If these don't work then small claims court.

I'm hoping others will join in with me.
more data is needed ... besides verifying your charging system is working fine. some late model BMW have well known charging issues related to rectifier/regulator issues. to where voltage output is within normal range. but as RPM goes up, voltage output goes down.

don't get me wrong .. not saying your Ballistic battery is not a hunk of junk as claimed. but let's verify your charging system is putting out normal voltage first.

then factor how some BMW motorcycles has one of the highest parasitic drains in the industry. combined with a tiny AH battery like most LiFePO4 vendors recommend. simply parking your motorcycle for a short period will drain your tiny AH LiFePO4 dead.

ONE discharge to dead, if allowed to stay dead for extended time will kill any battery. this includes LiFePO4. battery may not recover at all ..even if you get lucky and battery recharges back up... it will never be the same again.

another major problem is most LiFePO4 mfg don't factor is max charge rate your LiFePO4 battery will be exposed to. BMW R1150 and R1200 uses a 720 watt alternator. 720watt less overhead = about 37 amps delivered to your battery. if your battery is nearly full or full .. no problems as LiFePO4 will swallow 37 amps for a very short duration until it reaches absorption stage. then LiFePO4 naturally slow down inward current as it gets closer to full. until only milliamps is accepted.

say your bike has been parked for sometime .. parasitic drain has drained LiFePO4 down to say 5% state of charge (SOA) or almost dead. LiFePO4 even at 5% SOA will deliver enough amps to start your motorcycle for one good crank. now your tiny AH LiFePO4 is being charged at 37 amps. cells are rated for max charge rate of 4C (C = actual AH) so a 7AH battery charged at 37 amp = 5C or a recipe for a short life ... some LiFePO4 mfg have been known to recommend a 5AH actual battery for R1200GS. max charge rate for 37 amps is an outrageous 7C charge rate .. if charged from almost dead that 5AH LiFePO4 will severely overheat and probably melt.

IMHO sizing a LiFePO4 too small is the most common reason for LiFePO4 failure in motorcycles.

need to verify LiFePO4 voltage is 13.3v (90%) range when motorcycle is parked for the night. need voltage reading at idle and 3,000 rpm measured at battery. readings needs to be taken with a known to be correct meter.
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Old 11-04-2013, 07:57 AM   #28
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more data is needed ... besides verifying your charging system is working fine. some late model BMW have well known charging issues related to rectifier/regulator issues. to where voltage output is within normal range. but as RPM goes up, voltage output goes down.

don't get me wrong .. not saying your Ballistic battery is not a hunk of junk as claimed. but let's verify your charging system is putting out normal voltage first.

then factor how some BMW motorcycles has one of the highest parasitic drains in the industry. combined with a tiny AH battery like most LiFePO4 vendors recommend. simply parking your motorcycle for a short period will drain your tiny AH LiFePO4 dead.

ONE discharge to dead, if allowed to stay dead for extended time will kill any battery. this includes LiFePO4. battery may not recover at all ..even if you get lucky and battery recharges back up... it will never be the same again.

another major problem is most LiFePO4 mfg don't factor is max charge rate your LiFePO4 battery will be exposed to. BMW R1150 and R1200 uses a 720 watt alternator. 720watt less overhead = about 37 amps delivered to your battery. if your battery is nearly full or full .. no problems as LiFePO4 will swallow 37 amps for a very short duration until it reaches absorption stage. then LiFePO4 naturally slow down inward current as it gets closer to full. until only milliamps is accepted.

say your bike has been parked for sometime .. parasitic drain has drained LiFePO4 down to say 5% state of charge (SOA) or almost dead. LiFePO4 even at 5% SOA will deliver enough amps to start your motorcycle for one good crank. now your tiny AH LiFePO4 is being charged at 37 amps. cells are rated for max charge rate of 4C (C = actual AH) so a 7AH battery charged at 37 amp = 5C or a recipe for a short life ... some LiFePO4 mfg have been known to recommend a 5AH actual battery for R1200GS. max charge rate for 37 amps is an outrageous 7C charge rate .. if charged from almost dead that 5AH LiFePO4 will severely overheat and probably melt.

IMHO sizing a LiFePO4 too small is the most common reason for LiFePO4 failure in motorcycles.

need to verify LiFePO4 voltage is 13.3v (90%) range when motorcycle is parked for the night. need voltage reading at idle and 3,000 rpm measured at battery. readings needs to be taken with a known to be correct meter.
Yet, despite all the above, AGM still works..and works...and works..

Odd, yes??...all this talk about the batteries are failing, not working...because your bike, that worked perfectly well up until install of LiFePo...now..YOUR bike doesn't charge it correctly..it's too cold..it's too hot...you bought the wrong size..you filled it with water..etc..

Yet, we never see these threads on an Odyssey..or Interstate..or Wal Mart..

For the record, my Interstate AGM is going on six years old...been in 115 degree heat and down to 20-25 degrees..never a hiccup..
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VEGASGSA screwed with this post 11-04-2013 at 09:22 AM Reason: Because I was fat fingering my phone this morning..
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Old 11-04-2013, 08:44 AM   #29
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Yet, despite all the above, AGM still works..and works...and works..

Odd, yes??...all this talk about the batteties are failing, not working...becsuse your bike, that worked perfectly well up until install of LiFePo...now..YOUR bike doesn't charge it correctly..it's too cold..it's too hot...you bought the wrong size..you filled it with water..etc..

Yet, we never see these threads on an Odyssey..or Interstate..or Wal Mart..

For the record, my Interstate AGM is going on six years old...been in 115 degree heat and down to 20-25 degrees..never a hiccup..
no disagreement from me .. one reason AGM lives under sub optimal charging conditions is that AGM battery is correctly sized. almost always AGM will have the correct amp hour capacity spec'd by BMW or larger.

vs it's typical to install a LiFePO4 with actual AH 50% or less size spec'd by factory OEM engineers. sure that tiny AH LiFePO4 will start motorcycle just fine during warm weather .. but problems start when weather gets cold and/or bike goes dead from sitting because parasitic drain was not factored when sizing LiFePO4 battery, etc. etc.

this is why my recommendations is to go with AGM .. unless someone is willing to pay the $$$ for a correctly sized LiFePO4. on test mule R80G/S which has much higher starting amp requirement than any modern bike... has performed flawlessly even at 15f .. it's LiFePO4 is correctly sized at 14AH actual... Shorai LFX36 (14AH) and EarthX ETX36 (14AH) has both passed long term (2 yr and 1yr) tests flawlessly!!!
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Old 11-04-2013, 08:53 AM   #30
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Others...how did your batteries fail?


It hasn't failed, still going strong. Starts right up at 15 degrees too.


Did you ever check the grounds on your bike?


Good luck with your witch hunt.
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