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Old 11-23-2012, 10:51 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by wbbnm View Post
The vast majority of the WRT is already in Canyonlands. I could well be wrong but I assume that if all this new land were included in Canyonlands, then the current restrictions of Canyonlands would apply to the entire new NM.

For us this mainly means that you have to be street legal to ride any of the roads like you do now for the WRT. Some worse fallout would probably be that lots of minor roads and trails would be completely closed.

I assume most of the new land is now Forest Service or BLM. As such there theoretically should have been travel management plans created for it in the past few years that formally limit riding to specific roads and trails. This is enough of a catastrophe IMHO.

Similar to Escalante (and others), many of the existing, well-established roads and routes would be closed. You won't see the full side effects until after the the proposal is enacted and the NM in place. Some of the roads will remain open, and they will build (and pave) new ones too (for the RV'ers and road-side gawkers). That said, there won't be any trail riding or sand riding (White Wash) or slickrock riding. . . and most of the roads to these areas would be closed to access anyway. Of course, there will be plenty of roads open only to "Administrative Access", so that they can drive on them, you know, to keep us in check.

As Pelosi once said, "you'll have to pass it to see what's in it" (ref to Obamacare).
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:15 AM   #62
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[QUOTE=singletrackslayer;20103364]signed the petition, up to 16 now. WTF?[QUOTE]


I know...........There has probably been 1000 views on this thread already yet just a few signatures.



I cannot express the impact this would have on our ability to ride and the places open for riding. If this is put into place it will be the begining of the end. Motorcycle riding as we know it will change drastically and I fear it will lead to mass closures of public land, I think our future will look very much like Europe and the only places to ride will be mostly private.

Next they will go after the Swell (which they have tried already) and then it will spread into Colorado, New Mexico etc as Wilderness designations.


The best way I can see to stop this is banning together. Everyone, and that means EVERYONE, has to sign the letter that will be sent to President Obama asking to keep this area open. Sign here

The basis for any support this movement had was enlisting all the business sponsors. The sole reason they have any legitimacy is that they have 100 well known businesses saying they support this. If we take away the support from the businesses what weight does the proposal have???? NONE.

The best way I can see to do this is with the petition pledging to boycott all the business and explaining what a National Monument Proposal really means when it is sent to them.
I have set up a petition to do just that. Please sign it pledging to not support any businesses that are actively trying to take our lifestyle, and in some cases our livelihood, away. Sign here



So please place your name on the letter to President Obama here
and sign the petition pledging to boycott all the supporting businesses here

COXR650L screwed with this post 11-23-2012 at 11:25 AM
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:21 AM   #63
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I still think that the only way to head off this action is to get Jon Huntsman, Jr. involved. Our community is much smaller than the absolute greenies who are behind this movement. Huntsman knows his stuff and has strong connections to the current administration. He could give a good outline of the action and the reasons it is garbage. Here is his Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/jonhuntsmanjr
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:27 AM   #64
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Make that #17 signature
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:48 AM   #65
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#18.

I'm really hoping this gets sent, with a very large number of signatures, to all of the retailers on the list.
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:49 AM   #66
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letter to obama sent, with this added

On another note, I do not see how creating more demand on the national budget will help its situation. With massive cuts to the Public lands sectors like the US Forest Service, BLM, and National Parks Service, creating more responsibilities for them does not seem like a responible plan of action for a leader of the free nations of this world. It would seem to take so much more money to keep the public off of public lands that it would be unpatriotic when there are so many bigger demands to our great nation's funds.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:03 PM   #67
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What you guys might not realize is that the response by the greenie group might be a response to the Utah governors attempt to take over all federal lands in Utah. And for that reason I still thank that this issue is best moderated by Jon Huntsman, Jr. I strongly reject any changes to the status of these lands, either by the state or federal government. Here is an article (link at bottom) that describes the new Utah governor's takeover attempt:
Outdoor Industry To Utah’s Governor: Shape Up Or We May Ship Out
By Public Lands Team on Aug 7, 2012 at 9:34 am

The President of Black Diamond Equipment has been very critical of Utah's Governor for threatening the state's recreation industry.
by Tom Kenworthy
Even by the dismal standard set by many western state officials on management of public lands, Utah Gov. Gary Herbert stands out.
Earlier this year Herbert signed a clearly unconstitutional measure passed by the state legislature asserting that Utah can lay claim to 30 million acres of federal lands within the state’s borders and appropriating $3 million in scarce state funds to fight that hopeless battle in court. He has also brought a lawsuit to gain state control of 12,000 miles of “roads” that cross federal parks, monuments, wilderness areas and red rock wonderlands managed by the federal Department of Interior – many of which are nothing but cow paths and nearly invisible trails.
Herbert and others would like to see Utah seize those rights of way so they can stop the creation of any more wilderness in Utah and allow off-road vehicles to tear up protected federal lands. You can see pictures of those so-called roads here.
Those positions may appeal to some in Herbert’s far right wing constituency. But Herbert is getting some serious push back from folks he needs, and he’s discovering that demagogic Sagebrush Rebellion talk may carry a sizable economic price.
Last week, the nation’s outdoor recreation industry gave Herbert a very public beat down for his positions on public lands, and made an explicit threat to take its two annual trade shows – located in Salt Lake City since 1996 – elsewhere. The summer and winter shows – even though closed to the public and open only to outdoor industry members – bring 46,000 visitors to Utah’s capital and pump more than $42 million a year into the local economy.
That reality shouldn’t be lost on either other western politicians or the U.S. as a whole.
After a private meeting with Herbert, Frank Hugelmeyer, the president and CEO of the Outdoor Industry Association, released a scathing statement from the trade group’s board about “Utah’s unfavorable positions on public lands policy”:
“These policies threaten the recreation infrastructure that is fundamental to the outdoor industry…Of greatest concern is the governor’s lawsuit challenging the federal government over jurisdiction of the federal public lands and some road claims within national parks, monuments and wilderness areas. We have not and will not sit silently on threats to the nation’s recreation infrastructure.”
Herbert emerged from the meeting uttering happy talk about how OIA and the state could work together to solve the problem of not enough exhibition space for the annual trade shows.
What Herbert apparently doesn’t fully understand is that trashing federally protected lands in Utah is a very real threat to the state’s economy, which relies greatly on tourism and recreation tied to those very federal lands. Outdoor recreation employs 65,000 people in Utah, generates $5.8 billion in economic activity and produces about $300 million in state tax revenues, according to the Salt Lake Tribune.
The OIA itself, in a June report, found that 6.1 million American jobs are directly supported by the industry – three times as many as are supported by oil and gas — and that Americans spend $646 billion each year on activities like camping, hunting, and snow sports.
Peter Metcalf, CEO and President of Black Diamond Equipment – a leading manufacturer of climbing, skiing and mountaineering gear that is based in Utah – was instrumental in getting OIA to take a stand against Herbert. The governor’s policies, Metcalf told the Salt Lake Tribune, “are dangerous not only for the vitality of Utah’s vibrant, active out-door recreation industry, but for tourism, biodiversity and a healthy environment for its citizens as well.”
Herbert apparently thought he could get away with feuding just with Metcalf, who wrote a newspaper column in March taking the legislature and governor to task for their “short-sighted” attacks on public lands. “These folks are killing the goose that lays the golden egg,” Metcalf wrote.
In response, Herbert gave Metcalf a private ultimatum. Be more collaborative or resign from Utah’s Ski and Snowboard Industry Working Group.
Metcalf resigned. But it wasn’t very long before he showed up with several thousand of his friends from the OIA to remind Herbert that money talks – threatening to walk to another state with leaders who understand the importance of protected public lands.
Tom Kenworthy is a Senior Fellow at the Center for American Progress Action Fund

LINKY:
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/201...out/?mobile=nc
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:24 PM   #68
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And here is another interesting read on the complexities of Utah trails showing that idiot jeepers are causing some of the problems:
http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com...k-not-road8225
Which discusses the issue and the history of the 'Sagebrush Rebellion' which the current Utah governor is trying to reinvent.
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Old 11-23-2012, 02:22 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by doc_ricketts View Post
What you guys might not realize is that the response by the greenie group might be a response to the Utah governors attempt to take over all federal lands in Utah. And for that reason I still thank that this issue is best moderated by Jon Huntsman, Jr. I strongly reject any changes to the status of these lands, either by the state or federal government. Here is an article (link at bottom) that describes the new Utah governor's takeover attempt:
Maybe I'm not understanding what your point is here, but are you suggesting that this proposal for a Greater Canyon Lands Monument is only in response to the State of Utah's current position on federal lands???

If this is what your saying, so what? The issue still remains that there is a president in office that could just as easly side with the drafters of the letter and designate the entire area, or any portion of it, as a national monument which would be an unthinkable outcome for us.

The "greenies" can sue and exploit the courts for their own agenda all the time (ie Capital Jacks Trail) yet when a state attempts to gain some control back of the land and uses the courts in a similar manner they are in the wrong and this is the outcome

If this is not what you are saying Im sorry upfront, but that is what I got out of it.

I also dont have any faith that Huntsman will "negoiate" on our behalf. This is a critial issue to the future of riding in the Western States and we need to treat it as such. I am all for seeing what Huntsman's stance is on the issue and any political backing will help, but we all still need to do our part so our voices are heard.

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Old 11-23-2012, 02:40 PM   #70
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Maybe I'm not understanding what your point is here, but are you suggesting that this proposal for a Greater Canyon Lands Monument is only in response to the State of Utah's current position on federal lands???

If this is what your saying, so what? The issue still remains that there is a president in office that could just as easly side with the drafters of the letter and designate the entire area, or any portion of it, as a national monument which would be an unthinkable outcome for us.

The "greenies" can sue and exploit the courts for their own agenda all the time (ie Capital Jacks Trail) yet when a state attempts to gain some control back of the land and uses the courts in a similar manner they are in the wrong and this is the outcome

If this is not what you are saying Im sorry upfront, but that is what I got out of it.

I also dont have any faith that Huntsman will "negoiate" on our behalf. This is a critial issue to the future of riding in the Western States and we need to treat it as such. I am all for seeing what Huntsman's stance is on the issue and any political backing will help, but we all still need to do our part so our voices are heard.
I am a scientist and in this case I am just trying to understand the history of the debate over this area. I totally want things left alone, because I have enjoyed the area since I first went to the U. of Utah and made many trips down there studying the geology, hiking, and more recently making motorcycle rides. There is plenty of pristine area preserved and what is accessible now to motorized travel needs to be left alone. And I support the access to much of this area to energy development, but not housing development. The State of Utah does not need to fork over these lands to home and ranch developers which will close off things faster than anything. I have signed the petition, but my sense is that our ADV community is pretty small potatoes compared to the weight behind the Sierra Club faction. You can poo poo the role that Huntsman might play in this, but I have both signed the petition, sent the email to Obama, and will get some appropriate mail to Huntsman at the right point.

And you might want to read the article again and notice this statement:
"After a private meeting with Herbert, Frank Hugelmeyer, the president and CEO of the Outdoor Industry Association, released a scathing statement from the trade group’s board about “Utah’s unfavorable positions on public lands policy”:"
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:26 PM   #71
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Old 11-24-2012, 06:15 AM   #72
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I am a scientist and in this case I am just trying to understand the history of the debate over this area. I totally want things left alone, because I have enjoyed the area since I first went to the U. of Utah and made many trips down there studying the geology, hiking, and more recently making motorcycle rides. There is plenty of pristine area preserved and what is accessible now to motorized travel needs to be left alone. And I support the access to much of this area to energy development, but not housing development. The State of Utah does not need to fork over these lands to home and ranch developers which will close off things faster than anything. I have signed the petition, but my sense is that our ADV community is pretty small potatoes compared to the weight behind the Sierra Club faction. You can poo poo the role that Huntsman might play in this, but I have both signed the petition, sent the email to Obama, and will get some appropriate mail to Huntsman at the right point.

And you might want to read the article again and notice this statement:
"After a private meeting with Herbert, Frank Hugelmeyer, the president and CEO of the Outdoor Industry Association, released a scathing statement from the trade group’s board about “Utah’s unfavorable positions on public lands policy”:"
Doc,

Sorry, It seemed like in your fist posts you were saying this was some how justified, or a reasonable response, due to Utah's current political environment (at least how I read it).

But I see what your point is and I agree this has always been their agenda, but due to the recent actions by the State of Utah they used used those as a "selling" point to give this the momentum it had.

I also agree 100% with your comments about access for energy development vs housing.

It is important to remember this is not a new problem, it has been done in Escalante, they tried it with the Swell and they will continue to try it until it happens, and then they will start trying again somewhere else.

Let us know what kind of response Huntsman gives? How are you getting in touch with him?
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:33 AM   #73
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Doc,

Let us know what kind of response Huntsman gives? How are you getting in touch with him?
I sent him an email and a message on Facebook. I suspect he already knows about the actions from the Utah governor and the environmental groups. He is being rumored for the Sec. State replacement, so I imagine he is very busy, but knowing how he loves offroad riding and the beautiful areas of Utah, I suspect he will be involved somehow. This issue involves the fine details of state-federal/environment-energy complexities. Similar issues have centered around Yellowstone and other areas that are highly multiuse. I worked on a problem north of Yellowstone where a wacko church group was drilling a large number of geothermal wells. And similar problems existed along the western margin of Yellowstone with energy development.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:59 AM   #74
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I signed the petition.
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:32 PM   #75
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So what do these clowns all Think? Do they think that when they get us banned from every trail in the country that we are all go to magically sell our dirt bikes and buy hiking boots . I don't frigging think so !

They are going to need more LEO's on the trail systems than they have on the roads !
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